[DeltaFiveBravo]

Ballistic gelatin is meant to be repeatable. It is neither accurate or inaccurate.

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is a realistic human soft tissue simulant. It accurately depicts the terminal performance of the projectile shot into it and the wounding effects produced in human soft tissues. It accurately reproduces the forces exerted on the bullet when it penetrates soft tissues.

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

Laboratory "proof" is all they've got and it's worth less than the paper it's printed on.

"The field is the ultimate laboratory." -- Martin L. Fackler, M.D.​

​

THE WOUND PROFILE & THE HUMAN BODY: DAMAGE PATTERN CORRELATION, (see pages 12 through 19 of Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 1, Number 4)​

 

[MarkCO]

Gelatin is an Inaccurate Medium for Testing Defensive Ammunition.

That was what you were searching for as a thread title. You just added an unnecessary adjective.

Real animals/humans are best, but costly and fraught with complications. After that, Fackler boxes using newspaper and glycerine have provided the best, consistent, replacement.

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

I'll add that a MAJORITY of viewers, at least on the YouTube platform......insist on clear gel being used so they can see the bullet passing through the block.

Kind & Knox Type 250A ordnance gelatin is transparent, whereas Vyse Type 250A ordnance gelatin is cloudy.

Many testers use Vyse because it's cheaper than Kind & Knox. Both produce accurate results.

Kind & Knox is best for photographic purposes.

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

True, but most of the terminal ballistics experts in the urban tactical crowd never hunted a wabbit, much less hogs.

Fackler was an avid hunter.

 

[peng]

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is a realistic human soft tissue simulant.

I don't really disagree with that, but the human body is not made of only soft tissue nor is it covered by standardized materials or tested at a constant temperature or even has a common density of tissue.

Based on real world information, a realistic gelatin test would give you different and unrepeatable result each time you used it.

Would that be more useful than the repeatable but not representative current gel test?

I think the misunderstanding is in the purpose of the gel test. Since these tests are now frequently done, the manufacturers use them as a QC tool right? Look how repeatable and reliable our ammo is.

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

Show the proof...

Here's a publicly available study:

"Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet in Human Tissue and Tissue Simulant" (see pages 10 through 13).​

​

 

[DeltaFiveBravo]

I don't really disagree with that, but the human body is not made of only soft tissue nor is it covered by standardized materials or tested at a constant temperature or even has a common density of tissue.

Based on real world information, a realistic gelatin test would give you different and unrepeatable result each time you used it.

Would that be more useful than the repeatable but not representative current gel test?

I think the misunderstanding is in the purpose of the gel test. Since these tests are now frequently done, the manufacturers use them as a QC tool right? Look how repeatable and reliable our ammo is.

I suggest you read:

WOUND BALLISTICS MISCONCEPTIONS by Duncan MacPherson, (see pages 42-43).​

​

"...the fallacy in the assertion that the inhomogeneities in tissue make gelatin invalid as a tissue simulant is not explicitly described in Bullet Penetration, and so is discussed here." ​

 

[Deaf Smith]

In 1987 and 1988, the FBI compared terminal performance and wounding effects of over 200 shootings to the results depicted for the same cartridges in ordnance gelatin to prove to itself the validity of properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin prior to adopting it as a realistic human soft tissue simulant.

In the 35 years since, several other entities in the U.S. and world-wide, have also compared actual shooting results to ordnance gelatin, which is why it's the gold standard realistic soft tissue simulant.

"The test of the wound profiles ' validity [in properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin] is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body. Since most shots in the human body traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the tissues traversed. However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile's course. Shots traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close approximation to the wound profiles." -- Martin L. Fackler, M.D.​

200??? you need thousands... for each cartrige made there are BRANDS of ammo, and several types of bullets for each brand.. sevearl confgurations... and back in 87 they, as you have said yourself, did not have the types of bullet designs they have now.

And the FBI has a track history of self serving stats.

 

[Rock_Crawler_Jeep]

A .45 ACP is bigger but the 308 is MUCH faster... Much faster beats bigger in this case. All ya gotta do is think for a moment.

A 500 grain .458 Win Mag at 2100 fps is much bigger and much slower than a 55 grain 5.56 round at 3100 FPS but the deciding factor here isn't speed its size... Nobody in their right mind would claim the 5.56 has more stopping power than a .458 Win Mag...well maybe someone on the internet might...

And how does your "formula" work on bigger/slower cartridges and their effect on penetration? I'm not talking about the "stopping power" fantasy you brought into this discussion from nowhere- I'm talking about the gist of this thread. Bullet penetration.
I'm always happy to listen to people preen and crow about the .458 Win Mag as if it's the Ne Plus Ultra of the shooting world, but I guarantee that my .45-120 with a 500 gr paper-patched bullet @ 1490 fps is going penetrate farther, and do more tissue damage along the way, than your Win Mag. I've seen it, I've done it.
SERIOUS hunters learned long ago- SPEED IS NOT THE ANSWER. Speed only helps certain bullets perform within their specific design envelope.
Think you're gonna argue?
Then tell me why the anemic .30-30 winchester is STILL one of the top 5 cartridges used for big game hunting, as documented by states which record firearm data at the game check-in point. And since I've used that cartridge in a Super 14 Contender handgun for almost 40 years, I can personally attest to the ability of a cartridge that is neither big nor fast. I've taken mule deer, whitetail deer, pronghorn, and black bear with it.
Back in the 1950's, Roy Weatherby was asked about the purpose of his high speed cartridges.
His reply?
It makes for a flatter trajectory, which makes it easier to get an accurate shot without having to calculate distance or holdover.
Nothing about increased killing power. Though he did learn to say that later for marketing purposes. 👍

 

[Rock_Crawler_Jeep]

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is a realistic human soft tissue simulant. It accurately depicts the terminal performance of the projectile shot into it and the wounding effects produced in human soft tissues. It accurately reproduces the forces exerted on the bullet when it penetrates soft tissues.

Uh...no.

 

[MarkCO]

Yeah, a 33 or 35 caliber bullet around 225 grains and 2700 fps is a better DRT option than a 150 grain 7mm bullet going faster with more ME...on Moose, Elk, etc. On Deer, eh, there is such a thing as overkill. But we never get there with service pistol calibers.

It is a combination of the parameters that matter. Terminal ballistics is a depth AND breadth topic that few ever get to the education AND experience level to be able to make valid assertions about

 

[walkinguf61]

Even official FBI jello isn't the same as a living human body. In jell blocks, bullets always go in a straight line but in the human body, which consists of muscle, fat, organs, and bones and is not all one uniform consistency, projectiles can often change direction and sometimes do more damage and other times miss vital organs and allow the recidivist to continue wreaking havoc

I think what we need is a constitutional amendment to make cruel and unusual punishment legal so that we can use people who have been convicted of particularity heinous crimes for ammo testing.
View attachment 1126534

You mean like what China does?
Real ordinance gel is a homozygous test material that isn’t a one to one interpretation of the human body but an interpretative medium. There is a whole body of studies by the international wound ballistics association, government studies , gel tests with skeletons inserted into the gel and even the old ballistics study that used animals and cadavers that verified the relevance of real ordinance gel results . 12 inches in gel isn’t directly translated to 12 or inches in the body.

 

[8X8]

I prefer green jello.

I’m addicted to blue cheese.

 

[DirtyShirt]

There are serious problems with inaccurate terminal performance test results when clear gelatin is used as a test medium.

The study, "Ballistic Gelatin Comparisons", (posted on the Hornady Media Center website) revealed:

"...bullets fired into the clear synthetic gelatin consistently penetrated farther than they did in the organic gelatin – on the order of about 24% (bare) to 36% (heavy clothing) more, on average."​

​

Beware of terminal performance test results of defensive ammunition in which Clear Gelatin was the test medium, unfortunately including those performed by Lucky Gunner.

If I watch someone tests in clear gel I just look at it as entertainment.

 

[M 7]

Oh dear...

You mean like what China does?
Real ordinance gel is a homozygous test material that isn’t a one to one interpretation of the human body but an interpretative medium. There is a whole body of studies by the international wound ballistics association, government studies , gel tests with skeletons inserted into the gel and even the old ballistics study that used animals and cadavers that verified the relevance of real ordinance gel results . 12 inches in gel isn’t directly translated to 12 or inches in the body.

...you guys crack me up.

Ordnance gelatin has nothing to do with embryonic genetic research (so it is not homozygous). While ordnance gelatin is not perfectly isotropic, it is close enough to being so that we can treat it as being a homogeneous material.

 

[Big Bird]

And how does your "formula" work on bigger/slower cartridges and their effect on penetration? I'm not talking about the "stopping power" fantasy you brought into this discussion from nowhere- I'm talking about the gist of this thread. Bullet penetration.
I'm always happy to listen to people preen and crow about the .458 Win Mag as if it's the Ne Plus Ultra of the shooting world, but I guarantee that my .45-120 with a 500 gr paper-patched bullet @ 1490 fps is going penetrate farther, and do more tissue damage along the way, than your Win Mag. I've seen it, I've done it.
SERIOUS hunters learned long ago- SPEED IS NOT THE ANSWER. Speed only helps certain bullets perform within their specific design envelope.
Think you're gonna argue?
Then tell me why the anemic .30-30 winchester is STILL one of the top 5 cartridges used for big game hunting, as documented by states which record firearm data at the game check-in point. And since I've used that cartridge in a Super 14 Contender handgun for almost 40 years, I can personally attest to the ability of a cartridge that is neither big nor fast. I've taken mule deer, whitetail deer, pronghorn, and black bear with it.
Back in the 1950's, Roy Weatherby was asked about the purpose of his high speed cartridges.
His reply?
It makes for a flatter trajectory, which makes it easier to get an accurate shot without having to calculate distance or holdover.
Nothing about increased killing power. Though he did learn to say that later for marketing purposes. 👍

You can lead a horse to water...

45-120 has NEVER been an African DG cartridge...and will never be one. You can claim all you want. 1400 FPS doesn't beat 2200 FPS with the same weight bullet anywhere at any time. I've shot enough stuff to know.

 

[Rock_Crawler_Jeep]

Oh dear...



...you guys crack me up.

Ordnance gelatin has nothing to do with embryonic genetic research (so it is not homozygous). While ordnance gelatin is not perfectly isotropic, it is close enough to being so that we can treat it as being a homogeneous material.

YEAH! WHAT HE SAID!!!

 

[M 7]

Properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin is a realistic human soft tissue simulant. It accurately depicts the terminal performance of the projectile shot into it and the wounding effects produced in human soft tissues. It accurately reproduces the forces exerted on the bullet when it penetrates soft tissues.

Uh...no.

Uh...wrong.

Pressure, which is force per unit area (or F/A), produced by an object striking a water-based medium like 10% ordnance gelatin or human soft tissues, is determined only by the impact velocity and density of the medium being struck according to the Bernoulli equation, P = ½ρTV². The Bernoulli equation is derived from the Navier–Stokes equation, considering flow along a streamline, assuming that the volume force potential is independent of the time, for an inviscid, incompressible fluid where V is the velocity, P is the pressure, and ρ is the fluid density. Given that water, 10% ordnance gelatin, and human soft tissues are composed primarily of water (which is considered to be an inviscid, incompressible fluid), the Bernoulli equation can be used to establish a dynamic equivalence amongst all three materials. If equal pressures occur in any two mediums and human soft tissues, then it can be said that 10% ordnance gelatin and water correctly and accurately reproduces the forces exerted upon the bullet when it penetrates soft tissues.

Water has a density of 999.964 kg/m³
*ITS-90 Density of Water Formulation for Volumetric Standards Calibration, J. Res. Natl. Inst. Stnd. Tech. 97, 335 (1992)

10% ordnance gelatin has a density of 1,029.00 kg/m³
*The Material Properties of Gelatin Gels, J. Winter, March 1975

Human soft tissues have a body-average density of 1,043.00 kg/m³
*Empirical relationships between acoustic parameters in human soft tissues, Applied Research Laboratory, Pennsylvania State University, Mast, D (2000)


So, for example:

If we take a hypothetical 9mm FMJ moving at 1,250 fps (381 mps) through human soft tissues, 10% gelatin, and water, we obtain the following pressure values that drive the expansion of our hypothetical JHP-

For human soft tissues: Pressure = ½ρTV² = ½ x 1,043 kg/m³ x (381 m/s)² = 75,701,461.5 N/m²
For 10% ordnance gelatin: Pressure = ½ρTV² = ½ x 1,029 kg/m³ x (381 m/s)² = 74,685,334.5 N/m²
For water: Pressure = ½ρTV² = ½ x 999.964 kg/m³ x (381 m/s)² = 72,577,887.102 N/m²

All of the values are very close to one another and within reasonable acceptable statistical error limits (±2.50%) for such experiments indicating that the pressure (force/area) occuring in human soft tissues at projectile impact will be accurately represented by either test medium (10% ordnance gelatin or water).

 

[fastbolt]

Folks, hopefully there are people who lawfully carry a firearm as a dedicated defensive weapon who pay at least as much attention to the development and maintenance of their abilities, as they do to thinking (assuming?) gel testing will offer any sort of a guarantee of how the bullets they may fire will perform in real world conditions ... presuming they even hit their intended threat target.

Awareness
Knowledge (laws)
Skillset (development & maintenance)
Experience
Judgment (good decision-making)
.
.
.
.
Gear (including ammunition)

Like to watch gel testing of ammunition, whether organic or synthetic? Cool. Balance it with some study of the other - arguably more critical - priorities, too.