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Buckshot vs. Slugs

13K views 71 replies 50 participants last post by  CanyonMan  
#1 ·
There was a recent thread in a FB group asking if folks preferred Buckshot or Slugs for their HD shotguns. The answers were, for the most part not based on sound theory by those who provided their reasoning (even if their choice was a good one). The shotgun is certainly a multi-dimensional power tool. I have shot a lot of things with shotguns, from an Elk with a slug at 80 yards, through medium size game to Doves with .410s. I continue to see threads that propagate urban legends related to shotguns, both pro and con. But there are several things that fans of the shotgun who actually have some training on the platform understand. First, except for denial of approach, aiming is still needed to deliver rounds on target. Second, Slugs maintain a significant power advantage over pistols at all distances and buckshot at some distance. Third, at some point (lots of factors to consider) buckshot falls behind slugs (and pistols) in terms of delivering effective rounds on target. Where that occurs is up for debate and the general scope of this post. Historically, many have said (and trained) buckshot to 25 yards, slugs beyond. That brings up two issues. First, is 25 yards the right distance? Second, select loading is a high skill endeavor both from a functional and mental perspective. So from contact to 25 yards, any reason to use buckshot over slugs?

There are nuances and each specific case is different, but for me, I prefer a slug over buckshot to stop a single threat at any distance. Indiscriminate homicidal mob, probably buckshot. Denial of approach, buckshot for sure.

I will present why I have come to these preferences. I have investigated (professionally) several shootings with shotguns as well as conducted a survey of deer hunters who have used buck and slugs (5 to 75 yards). I have also reviewed case files of a few high profile cases where buckshot was used and some uses of buckshot by LEOs in the 1970s through the 1990s (Scattered events since 2000) including department reports on efficacy. Working with the Marines who used M4s to guard US Embassies gave me another data point to consider. I have been involved in a few live fire tests with various ammunition as well. One was a pig eradication hunt I did and we shot some coyotes as well. I used a shotgun with slugs, buck and 9mm and .45 pistols from 10 feet to about 150 feet. With this in mind and realizing we want to stop the threat NOW, as opposed to 10 minutes from now, I am adamant that slugs are significantly better than buckshot overall, and distinctly so at further distances. Not a single case with buckshot on game was there a DRT shot past 10 yards. Almost all had to be tracked for a decent distance. On humans shot with buckshot with a full pattern at distances inside of 10 yards, I found most were DRT, but some who survived. In the Aurora Theater shooting, 6 rounds of buckshot were fired at victims at relatively close distances (all under 25 yards, some under 10 yards)...none of those victims died from buckshot and most were ambulatory after being shot. From the work I have reviewed and done, 9mm is more effective than buckshot at stopping the threat NOW from 10 yards out and further. Slugs on the other hand rank right up there with .223 and .308 in terms of stopping the threat now at distances from contact to at least 100 yards. The number of shootings with slugs and buck is very low compared to other common defensive munitions, so some will dismiss this as anecdotal. Others will take it and do their own research. Most will just ignore it and go with what they have always done and "feel" is right. That is not me though. Testing and proof of theory or concept is a huge part of my professional work and I intend to keep my excellent track record going up against other experts in tact. That often requires research and analysis in addition to my specific case work. Before I went to slugs, from Buck, I used #1 buck, which (again limited data) does show to be better than 00 or #4. #1 Buck in a shotgun in relatively tight spaces with structure penetration concerns, like hotels and apartments, does make sense, so do not think I am discounting that at all. But, past 10 yards (yes, a generality) buckshot starts to fall behind slugs (and pistol rounds) for stopping the threat right now. So for "most" HD shootings, the shotgun with 1 round of buckshot will certainly stop the threat right now. Hope this helps some make a more informed choice that works for them and their environment.

Caveat: Shotguns certainly offer some cost benefit and overall, some people feel better learning the shotgun over the pistol. But, the pistol and shotgun are tools that take more time and dedication to achieve shooting (disregarding tactics) than the more expensive semi-auto rifle platforms. Given a scenario ahead of time, a person skilled with the rifle, pistol and shotgun would be able to pick the best solution. Suppressors, rate of fire, skill level all having an impact. Don't misunderstand, as I am sure some will, I am not discounting the shotgun, or buckshot at all. For some, best bet, for others, maybe not, that is all. Your budget, training and environment are all factors each person much consider for themselves.
 
#2 ·
I prefer 9 pellet buckshot for home defense. If I’m in a situation outside of the home where I think slugs would be appropriate, I would be grabbing my rifle. This is an opinion and isn’t founded in any kind of scientific data, but is based on an assumption that the slug is going to penetrate to a degree beyond what I consider acceptable inside of my house.
 
#3 ·
Good read. It seems there are endless variables, but for me as an engineer who relies on statistics to make things work, they speak to me. It comes down to the difference between possibility and probability.

Anything is possible, but some possibilities have extremely remote probabilities.

As citizens, we have limited responsibility to ever use a gun, and a limited scope of scenarios compared to some. We are not military or LE and likely will never see the situations they do or need to respond to them as they would.

Our most likely use is in home only, short distances, and low round counts. Penetration is more likely a foe than a friend.

To me that says buckshot, but again only based on the most likely situations I may find myself ever using it.
 
#6 ·
At interior HD distances (6” to 6 yards) the spread on buckshot is small enough that there probably isn’t a whole lot of difference when it comes to effect on the target.

At outdoor distances of 25 yards and beyond, I wouldn’t be using a shotgun.

For interior HD I prefer to reduce the damage to my hearing and have a deep magazine with rapid follow up shots... so I go with a pistol caliber carbine.

Quieter than a pistol. Ridiculously easy to hit with for any member of the family. Accurate shots on target as fast as you can pull the trigger.

If you live in a free state where suppressors are legal, that might change the decision... or it might not.
 
#7 ·
Brassfetcher has done a lot of work on this subject. 00 Buck with Flitecontrol gives you a hit probability of 50% at 52 yards with terminal effectiveness of 104 yards. I just use 50 as my max. No doubt though, slugs are more devastating in terms of terminal performance and extend the effective range.
 
#13 ·
Federal Flite-Control 00 buck 9 pellet in my duty shotgun. 5 more buck and 1 slug on the saddle.

Federal 27 pellet #4 buck in my home defense shotgun.
We are shotgun spiritual brothers.
 
#9 ·
I also keep #1 buckshot in my 870 for HD. Rem express 2 3/4". That's 16 .30 cal pellets @ 1250 fps. Removes meat and bone at HD ranges. My Rem 870 is a fixed choke IC. Outside of HD ranges I would use Fed Flite-Control rounds as they produce a tighter pattern at longer ranges in this gun. But I also have an 835 Moss with a longer barrel, and with a Carlsons coyote choke tube. This gives an even better pattern at longer ranges with buckshot, like most buckshot pellets in a 9" circle at 50 Yards.
 
#12 ·
Some shotguns (recently the Remington VersaMax) have more propensity to lead with slugs than others. It is usually due to the finish, or lack thereof, of the bore. With the VMs that were leading, I use a hone to smooth out the forcing cones and mitigated the issue. That is also one reason I prefer the FN P12 with a glass smooth chrome lined bore.

If your shotgun has the issue, you should see it within 50 rounds or so. Some of the copper plated slugs will take care of the issue as well.
 
#11 ·
I use to keep a 870 in my tool box in the garage and another in bedroom closet and both were loaded with 4Buck. My reason was it had a bead limiting effectiveness of aiming for a shot with slugs at any distance and I'd not worry so much about need for penetration. My son was issued a 870 and kept it loaded with slugs. He had option to have slugs, buck, or both. His reasoning was he had rifle sights and was confident he could make hits to 100 yards and more plus he may have to need to shoot into or through a car or barrier. He has since been allowed to carry an AR in addition to the 870.
 
#16 ·
When I was issued an 870, they gave us 5 slugs and 5 00 buck. Each year the buckshot changed low bid but it was always 00 9 pellet 2 3/4.
We were required to carry the shotgun in the trunk, hammer down on an empty chamber. I always thought I’d I had time to get to it, the situation was such that the first shot MIGHT be more of a precision shot so the first round up was a slug and everything else was buck. That, and the fact that as a Trooper most of my problems might occur around cars, was the deciding factor.
The longest shot in my house is under 15 yds. The shotguns are loaded with reduced recoil 00.
 
#20 ·
I’ve seen a boatload of black bear shot from contact to 25 yards with 12 and 20 gauge slugs and they do an excellent job.

I use 00 or #4 buck for a number of reasons. I don’t have sights on my shotgun. I also realize there is not much pattern spread at close range. But I’ve done a lot of grouse hunting and can get on target very quickly, pointing not aiming. Don’t have to worry about picking up my sights.
 
#21 ·
Lifelong deer hunter here in a shotgun only area of my State. I've seen at least 50 deer hit with 12 ga slugs from back in the day when regular .72 caliber rifled slugs were the only available to the new modern sabot rounds which are mostly about .50 cal. Both type slugs make gruesome wounds on deer and sometimes knock them flat. However many deadly hits, the deer can still run up to 100 yards. I dont see a human being able to fight or manuever after taking a thorax hit with a slug. I have never seen a buckshot hit on a deer, can't use that here slugs only.
 
#24 ·
Wife’s idea to pick up a compact shotgun for the backwoods dispersed camping we do, so I picked up this bullpup 12ga for our camp gun. Have a g20 with hardcast buffalo bore in chest holster when outside camp and hiking. Live in CO and do a quite a bit of camping in very remote areas in CO and surrounding states. Keep it loaded with slugs and spare mag with 00 buckshot.
Image



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#26 ·
Slugs all the way. No shotgun meant for "combat" should be without proper "rifle" sights. Even without sights, it's easy to put slugs into a human silhouette at home defense range out to 25 yards.
Buckshot runs out of steam REAL fast! Double-aught is a .33 ball that weighs just 60 grains. A heavy load will push the shot charge out around 1,400 fps (I'm fudging the number in favor of the shotgun) for a total kinetic energy of 2,350 fpe which certain sounds impressive. Except immediately after leaving the bore the shot cup peels away and those 9 pellets separate out. Each pellet was only carrying 260 lb-ft of energy which is dropping rapidly due to the inefficiency of round ball shapes and light weight. Each ball is delivering about the equivalent of a .36 C&B revolver. At PBR it's a devastating hit. At 25 yards, figure a decent barrel will "pattern" around 30" which is larger than the average human. Figure 50% hit at 25 yards, but now the pellets have slowed WAY down to around 900 fps or about 110 lb-ft of energy PER PELLET! That's 4 or 5 hits with a penetration average of around 7-8 inches depending on if the perp is wearing padded clothing or leather - leather does a LOT to impede the performance of buckshot.
Number 4 buck is worthless for antipersonnel use.
Number 1 buck is slightly better than worthless.
Triple-aught is the ideal choice because it retains the best power per pellet, but that's still astoundingly weak once those pellets have parted ways and each pellet is only striking with whatever residual energy it has.
As the OP pointed out, buckshot does have a purpose and that's when dealing with numbers up close that need to be dispersed or pushed back, or when facing multiple opponents where you MIGHT ricochet a buck round or three off the pavement to produce a lateral "spread" that hits down low. All of this however is well OUTSIDE the realm of legally recognized self defense.

Slugs all the way. Not only that, Brenneke style, bore diameter, rifled, with non-discarding sabot stabilizers in the base. These slugs "cut" through clothing - to include leather, and produce a great big hole CLEAN THROUGH. These slugs should be coming from an autoloading shotgun equipped with proper combat sights - rifle sights or red dot, or laser. If you wouldn't choose a pump-action rifle for SD you sure shouldn't be choosing a pump-action shotgun! Pumps are cheap and easy to understand which is why everybody keeps buying them - luckily FEW ever need to shoot them under stress.
Autoloading shotguns have gotten a lot less expensive and a LOT more reliable over the last few decades. An auto won't "bobble" the pump-action, but a human WILL. Just like with a rifle, the auto shotgun is chambered and on safe, ready to go. It should hold as many shells as physically possible. This is where Remington an others that use the same tube system have the advantage - just screw on an extension. My HD shotty has 9 rounds in the tube and one up the spout. The odds of needing to reload in a "defensive" situation is pretty close to nil.
BTW, those slugs can punch through car doors - walls, house doors...all the kinds of things people jump BEHIND when the shooting starts. The notion that you have to shoot weak ammo so you don't shoot through someone can kill everyone else in the house and down the street is SO overblown thanks to the internet. You have a greater chance of winning the lottery withOUT buying a ticket!
You put a slug into someone wearing a vest- they will likely be out of the fight. You put a slug through someone at room distance - they won't likely need medical attention.
Having said all that, probably the ideal home defense long arm is a rifle - AR-15.
 
This post has been deleted
#27 · (Edited)
Image
This guy liked #4 buck a lot in Vietnam, where he served as a SEAL. His name is Patches Watson, and he called his Ithaca Model 37 with its sawn off buttstock “sweetie”.
View: https://youtu.be/w6cmGHz-4O4

”Pretty worthless”, huh?




I disagree with most of that, and your last line just shows...you aren’t a shotgun person.
 
#28 ·
Slugs all the way. No shotgun meant for "combat" should be without proper "rifle" sights. Even without sights, it's easy to put slugs into a human silhouette at home defense range out to 25 yards.
Buckshot runs out of steam REAL fast! Double-aught is a .33 ball that weighs just 60 grains. A heavy load will push the shot charge out around 1,400 fps (I'm fudging the number in favor of the shotgun) for a total kinetic energy of 2,350 fpe which certain sounds impressive. Except immediately after leaving the bore the shot cup peels away and those 9 pellets separate out. Each pellet was only carrying 260 lb-ft of energy which is dropping rapidly due to the inefficiency of round ball shapes and light weight. Each ball is delivering about the equivalent of a .36 C&B revolver. At PBR it's a devastating hit. At 25 yards, figure a decent barrel will "pattern" around 30" which is larger than the average human. Figure 50% hit at 25 yards, but now the pellets have slowed WAY down to around 900 fps or about 110 lb-ft of energy PER PELLET! That's 4 or 5 hits with a penetration average of around 7-8 inches depending on if the perp is wearing padded clothing or leather - leather does a LOT to impede the performance of buckshot.
Number 4 buck is worthless for antipersonnel use.
Number 1 buck is slightly better than worthless.
Triple-aught is the ideal choice because it retains the best power per pellet, but that's still astoundingly weak once those pellets have parted ways and each pellet is only striking with whatever residual energy it has.
As the OP pointed out, buckshot does have a purpose and that's when dealing with numbers up close that need to be dispersed or pushed back, or when facing multiple opponents where you MIGHT ricochet a buck round or three off the pavement to produce a lateral "spread" that hits down low. All of this however is well OUTSIDE the realm of legally recognized self defense.

Slugs all the way. Not only that, Brenneke style, bore diameter, rifled, with non-discarding sabot stabilizers in the base. These slugs "cut" through clothing - to include leather, and produce a great big hole CLEAN THROUGH. These slugs should be coming from an autoloading shotgun equipped with proper combat sights - rifle sights or red dot, or laser. If you wouldn't choose a pump-action rifle for SD you sure shouldn't be choosing a pump-action shotgun! Pumps are cheap and easy to understand which is why everybody keeps buying them - luckily FEW ever need to shoot them under stress.
Autoloading shotguns have gotten a lot less expensive and a LOT more reliable over the last few decades. An auto won't "bobble" the pump-action, but a human WILL. Just like with a rifle, the auto shotgun is chambered and on safe, ready to go. It should hold as many shells as physically possible. This is where Remington an others that use the same tube system have the advantage - just screw on an extension. My HD shotty has 9 rounds in the tube and one up the spout. The odds of needing to reload in a "defensive" situation is pretty close to nil.
BTW, those slugs can punch through car doors - walls, house doors...all the kinds of things people jump BEHIND when the shooting starts. The notion that you have to shoot weak ammo so you don't shoot through someone can kill everyone else in the house and down the street is SO overblown thanks to the internet. You have a greater chance of winning the lottery withOUT buying a ticket!
You put a slug into someone wearing a vest- they will likely be out of the fight. You put a slug through someone at room distance - they won't likely need medical attention.
Having said all that, probably the ideal home defense long arm is a rifle - AR-15.
I'm curious where you got this information?

All of my 12 gauges set up for home defense (2 870's with rifle sights, and 500 with bead) will pattern Federal's LE flight control 00 buck in one big group at 15 yards, and easily keep every pellet inside a silhouette out to 30 yards. I can easily engage a silhouette out to 50 yards with 00 buck and get 2/3 of the pellets on target.

Its not just my guns either.....

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-56-federal-flight-control-1-buckshot/
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a...com/ammo-review-federal-premium-law-enforcement-buckshot-with-flitecontrol-wad/

Lastly, if someone's wearing a vest and takes a hit, I would not expect them down and out. It might happen, but its not a guarantee. I know guys who've taken hits from calibers far exceeding the 12 gauge, and stayed in the fight. Some of them dropped at the shot and then recovered, others fought right through it. Live leak replete with examples of US solderis getting sniped with 7x62x54 rounds, and bouncing right back up too.....
 
#30 ·
I have fairly extensive experience with shotguns as an LE instructor for the last twenty years. I prefer low recoil flight control 00 buckshot for HD. Inside your residence a good buckshot load should be very controlled at those distances and have devastating results. Outside, you're talking about 25 yard ideal and 50 yard maximum range with buckshot. If you have concerns past this distance than slugs are probably better. The question that often comes up is if you're using slugs than why not rifle. I have ghost ring, rifled sights and bead sights for my defensive shotguns. I wouldn't have any problem using a plain ole' bead sighted 870/590 with an 18.5 inch barrel for home defense.
 
#31 ·
I don't even know for sure what I have loaded in my HD shotguns - other than it is buckshot - I use to keep a few slugs in a side saddle - but I shot them up one day at the range and have not bothered to dig into the back of the closet to find replacements.

Put me down as - I don't care if it is #4 or 000 or anything in between because what I will be using them for it doesn't matter all that much.

I have a varied assortment because I am a sucker for a sale on buckshot and slugs - and would be perfectly happy using any of them on a BG breaking into my home.

Copy and past from my ammo spread sheet.
00 Buck WINCHESTER
Slug WINCHESTER
000 Buck REMINGTON
SLUG REMINGTON
S&B #4 BUCK
#4 Buck REMINGTON
0 Buck REMINGTON
00 BUCK 3 inch REMINGTON
00 Buck Wolf
Slug Wolf
Fiocchi low recoil 00 buck
Fiocchi low recoil slugs
 
#32 ·
At point blank, I agree, they’ll all work.

But some definitely work better further out than others. With regular Winchester 00 Buck, 25 yard is about as far as I can reasonably expect to keep most of the buck on target. But with Federal flite control 00, I can double that.