[MarkCO]

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/wa-police-academy-bans-sig-sauer-after-reports-it-could-fire-by-itself/

 

[40/45]

 

[Sam Spade]

Knowing that a 32 page thread on the 320 just got locked, I'm going to insist on sober and professional conduct in this thread. This being CT, we're going to act as though we were investigating and testifying on a matter.

To begin with, here is the WA report in full:

Sig Sauer P320 Pistol Report

 

[Sam Spade]

That said, my input: I was the Incident Commander on what originally was broadcast (dispatch's fault) as an OIS with an officer shot in the leg. Another agency (which didn't bother telling us that they were playing in our sandbox) was staging for a warrant service when one of their guys got shot.

Three witnesses (the guy who took the round and two others) all swore to me that the victim officer was seated in his ride with his hands on the steering wheel when came the bang. The two others originally thought that someone got careless with a LSDD. The holster was a Safariland low ride of some flavor. I have no idea of the outcome of the investigation--we punted it back to them, and they haven't shared. My department did ban the 320 from personal purchase/use after that.

 

[MarkCO]

I've investigated a few with LEOs. One no hand on firearm, another, fully in holster but hand had just contacted the holster.

 

[Agent6-3/8]

I know this topic sparks a lot of debate, but where there’s smoke there’s fire. I’ve seen some blaming the holsters and maybe so if people were using cheap suede IWB holsters or soft nylon crap from the gun store bargain bin. There is no reason these guns should be going off in quality duty holsters like Safariland. These incidents seem very different than ones we’ve seen in the past with Glocks that were caused by strings or other obstructions when the gun was reholstered, improper gun handling or poor quality holsters.

I’ve also noticed that Sig is pushing these guns hard with the special forces operator/ YouTube influencer crowd. GBRS Group, Field Craft Survival, etc. They’re even giving them away to guest on the Shawn Ryan Show. I think Sig is trying to advertise their way around a mechanical flaw in the P320 design… **Edit to add that in reality the SRS show, they’re giving away 365’s.

I’m not an Sig hater by any means. I carry a Sig M400 Pro everyday as my patrol rifle and it’s an excellent gun. There is something up with the P320 series though. I would not feel comfortable carrying one on duty, much less concealed.

All the above is just my conjecture and personal opinion, however.

 

[O_C]

We just banned them across the board, same as the SERPA holsters.

 

[pgg00]

The biggest concern for me with that report when it first came out was the appendix from Vancouver PD. They had several guns experience dead triggers. They would then fire if bumped.

 

[Matteo1371]

 

[Sam Spade]

They’re even giving them away to guest on the Shawn Ryan Show.

In fairness, Ryan is giving away 365s, which are different internally.

 

[larry_minn]

To be fair the SERPA holster flaw was the operator. Humans have instinct, habits. Training to almost exactly mimic pulling a trigger to draw a gun. Can cause some to continue motion between the intended actions. Resulting in an unintentional discharge.
I have not thrown mine away. I took training with it. Yes Carbine course. But we had transitions to pistol, reholster, reload carbine. And drills with constant switching. I was not only SERPA holster. Zero NDs. And more then one person got flustered trying to go too fast.

 

[Agent6-3/8]

In fairness, Ryan is giving away 365s, which are different internally.

Valid point and I meant to add that to my comment, but got side tracked.

 

[DirectDrive]

I just watched a video (yes, one of the many !) by a LEO and firearms instructor.
He showed a Blackhawk holster that his agency has adopted for their P320's.
It was shown to protect trigger access much better than any Safariland WML holster that I've seen.

 

[Sam Spade]

To be fair the SERPA holster flaw was the operator. Humans have instinct, habits. Training to almost exactly mimic pulling a trigger to draw a gun. Can cause some to continue motion between the intended actions. Resulting in an unintentional discharge.
I have not thrown mine away. I took training with it. Yes Carbine course. But we had transitions to pistol, reholster, reload carbine. And drills with constant switching. I was not only SERPA holster. Zero NDs. And more then one person got flustered trying to go too fast.

Negative. The problem with Serpa is in the failure to understand ergonomics, resulting in a dangerous design.

The Serpa works great as long as you release the lock with the fingerprint portion of your index finger, then pull up. When you use the tip of your finger, especially when you start pulling too soon, the trigger finger predictably enters the trigger guard, and you very likely put a round into your own body. Training issue? No, ergonomics issue.

Close your eyes and ring an imaginary doorbell. Keep them closed and summon an elevator. Dial a cell phone. All of those things are habitually done with the tip, not the fingerprint, portion of the index finger. And the hundreds of thousands of reps you have doing those things programs your brain--it habituates you. Now, when you get flustered and try to draw, you are very likely (I'm being a weasel with a lot of this because nothing in human performance is 100%) to get a slip and capture error, where your brain reverts to well-known motion, especially one that's close to the desired one.

Now add onto this that the natural motion of the hand under life threatening stress is to curl the tips of the fingers inward. Make a fist. Betchya that the tip and not the pad of the finger is resting against your palm.

Serpa is a fundamentally flawed design.

/thread drift

 

[JohnnyReb]

When I saw the recent video out of texas where an officer got shot in the leg, and someone removed the gun from his secured holster and cleared it, my mind changed. There is something up with the P320.

 

[larry_minn]

Negative. The problem with Serpa is in the failure to understand ergonomics, resulting in a dangerous design.

The Serpa works great as long as you release the lock with the fingerprint portion of your index finger, then pull up. When you use the tip of your finger, especially when you start pulling too soon, the trigger finger predictably enters the trigger guard, and you very likely put a round into your own body. Training issue? No, ergonomics issue.

Close your eyes and ring an imaginary doorbell. Keep them closed and summon an elevator. Dial a cell phone. All of those things are habitually done with the tip, not the fingerprint, portion of the index finger. And the hundreds of thousands of reps you have doing those things programs your brain--it habituates you. Now, when you get flustered and try to draw, you are very likely (I'm being a weasel with a lot of this because nothing in human performance is 100%) to get a slip and capture error, where your brain reverts to well-known motion, especially one that's close to the desired one.

Now add onto this that the natural motion of the hand under life threatening stress is to curl the tips of the fingers inward. Make a fist. Betchya that the tip and not the pad of the finger is resting against your palm.

Serpa is a fundamentally flawed design.

/thread drift

Did you read? Yes it is a danger to fair number of people. It’s too common, similar a movement for most under stress. Most training do not allow it. It’s not something I would wear concealed. but I liked for open carry. With its issues I understand most training places will not allow. Any firm would have huge liability to allow. They just did not take into account human mind/body mechanics enough. A decent retention system. But also a 2nd concern. If you needed to go prone, back. It was possible to get dirt, stone that could jam release way too easy. I recall issue twice.
I can appreciate something that did not work out without vilifying it. Now you got me thinking of trying it with G34.

 

[DirectDrive]

When I saw the recent video out of texas where an officer got shot in the leg, and someone removed the gun from his secured holster and cleared it, my mind changed. There is something up with the P320.

One question I would have in that case is "How does a proper, approved holster have the pistol muzzle pointing at the wearer's leg while walking ? "

 

[warbow150]

One question I would have in that case is "How does a proper, approved holster have the pistol muzzle pointing at the wearer's leg while walking ? "

People are shaped different and gear stretches and moves.

 

[JohnnyReb]

One question I would have in that case is "How does a proper, approved holster have the pistol muzzle pointing at the wearer's leg while walking ? "

My Safariland 6360 towards the bottom of the holster has a lot room for movement inward and outward. It's not a straight up/straight down kinda thing.

 

[Sam Spade]

This just (and I mean within a couple of hours) in from Sig: