Yes.

 

I had never heard of 41 Smith & Wesson Magnum until I found an old set of CH reloading dies.

I bought them anyway just because I liked the old box that they came in.

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The box is interesting, in that it says 41S&W MAG.. Cool find, by the way!

To the best of my knowledge, it's always been called the .41 Remington Magnum, introduced in the early 60's, around 1963 or 64.

 

The box says the dies are for the 38-45. Think that's a necked down .45 cartridge that never really caught on. The "shell holder" on the box say .41 S&W mag. Lots of reloading dies don't come with the shell holder, so maybe it references this LEE chart, where the .45 ACP holder is a #2....https://leeprecision.com/priming-tool-shell-holders.html

But not sure what you actually got in the box. What caliber are the actual dies stamped ??

 

Good observation that the top of the box says 'Hi-wall' Single shot conversions 38/45 Conversions. Back in the days of the 32/20, 44/40, and the 38/40 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) cartridges, the 32 was a 31, the 38 was a 40, and the 44 was a 42. (.428)

A 38/45 might have been the 45 colt case necked down to "38" which was actually 40 and they might have decided to re-name it the 41 Winchester magnum.

OR, the dies might actually be for the 41 Remington magnum and they called it the 41 Winchester magnum by mistake. The information printed on the box is confusing for a number of reasons.

The way to determine what the cartridge the dies are meant for could be determined by first looking into the dies and seeing if they are for a straight was or a bottle neck cartridge and then obtaining a 41 magnum case and seeing if the rim is too small for the shell holder and whether the 41 magnum case is too small for the die, if the die is a bottle neck 38/45 die.

if a 41 mag case, whether sized or un-sized would be a tight fit in the die.

The 41 Remington magnum cartridge was developed in 1964 by Remington for a Smith and Wesson revolver, the Model 58. The model 58 was a fixed sight M&P revolver intended for police use.

The original designers of the revolver wanted a medium frame revolver chambering a 41 special cartridge but both Remington and smith and Wesson figured a magnum would sell better.

The reasoning for going to a 41 caliber was because at the time the police could not use hollowpoint ammunition and a cartridge launching a larger diameter heavier bullet (210 grains vs 158) had a ballistic advantage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Remington_Magnum

 

We checked the dies at the show. I assumed the box cover was an advertisement.

And the back, just because it's interesting

 

We checked the dies at the show. I assumed the box cover was an advertisement.

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And the back, just because it's interesting

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So the die is stamped "41 Magnum" but is the die for a straight case or bottlenecked case and what size is the shellholder?

If the die or dies are actually usable for reloading 41 magnum, then you need to get a gun that fires that cartridge unless you already have one. Smith and Wesson models 57, 58, and 657 are very nice, as is the Ruger Blackhawk, Blackhawk Bisley and Redhawk, and the Desert Eagle. along with the JM Marlin and Henry carbines.

 

i believe a lot of the development was also to penetrate the much thicker steel car bodys of the day

 

At the age of 70 my memory goes back a ways and I recall when hollowpoint ammunition was considered "Inhumane" and there was quite a bit of controversy over the use of Hollowpoint ammunition and many police agencies prohibited it.
Concerned citizens and the ACLU (All Criminals Love Us) felt that since police shootings involved only those who were suspected but not yet convicted of committing a crime who might later be proven innocent, that it violated their civil rights to be shot with ammunition that resulted in greater fatalities.
I lived in Los Angeles in the 60's and the 80's and had friends in both the LAPD and the sheriff's department and the LAPD only approved the use of HP ammo as recently as 1990 decades after the first hollowpoint ammo was developed.
In the link that I posted about the 41 magnum, it says,
"The .357 Magnum suffered from restricted terminal ballistic effectiveness in the early 1960s, as jacketed hollow point bullets were not yet commonly available, and the major manufacturer's standard loadings consisted of simple lead bullets."
For the early 60's, this was absolutely true.
Lee Jurras began marketing Super Vel ammo in 1964 but this ammo was not commonly available that year when the 41 magnum was developed as a police cartridge, and not all, but many departments were reluctant to issue hollowpoint ammunition for many years afterward.
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-04-18/local/me-1244_1_hollow-point-bullets

The reason the .41 mag was developed was because there wasn't a lot of HP ammo being developed. Your own link gave the reason for the development of the .41.
".... as jacketed hollow point bullets were not yet commonly available, and the major manufacturer's standard loadings consisted of simple lead bullets."
It had nothing to do with ACLU or any grand outcry as you think you remember. The civil rights groups didn't even care about HP ammo prior to the development of the .41 mag. Simple reason - there wasn't HP ammo available. It wasn't being carried because there was none. The usual .38 Spl load was the 158 gr LRN because that's what was available. The usual .357 load was the 158 gr LSWC. That's what was available. The standard .45 ACP load was the .230 gr FMJ because that's what the manufacturers made. There could not be the outcry against the 'inhumane' use of HP that you contend because there wasn't the HP ammo available to LE prior to the .41 development.
I spent 42+ yrs in LE. So my memory goes back a ways in LE. I was there. I don't have to rely on Wikipedia or war stories you heard or read in some grocery story gun rag. I'm always surprised anyone depends on Wiki for accurate info. Everything on Wiki is put there by people who think they remember what happened, not that they actually knew. A lot is just repeated rumors by those who think they know.
Your memory is remembering the late 1960s/70s when civil rights groups expressed concerns, well after the development of the .41.
Sure there were agencies prohibiting HP ammo even into the early 2000s. Same reason some agencies prohibited any ammo labeled 'magnum' or .45 ACP. But none of that had anything to do with the .41 development because in the early 1960s when the .41 was developed none of that was a public or ACLU concern. The 'inhumane' ammo use didn't come about until the very late 1960s and 1970s because that's when HP ammo first started being carried, well after the .41 was developed.​

 

I guess you just won your own argument, but my original statement which you apparently agree with, still stands, that the 41 was developed because there wasn't yet a lot of HP ammo being developed in 1964 and 357 mag ammo was limited to LSWC's.

I apologize for going slightly off-topic into the issue of public opposition to hollowpoint ammunition by police agencies.

 

I think some folks are probably remembering the way "Dum-Dum's" entered the cultural vocabulary (not the candy), even influencing pulp and paperback fiction, like how a fictional private detective might cut notches on the tips of his .45's ball ammo at one time or another.

 

They are for straight wall cases. It looks like regular old 41 magnum. No shell holder in the box. I guess I could see if I can cross the number.

One thing a little different is that the sizing die is a stand-alone. The primer is popped out and the mouth is flared with the same die.

I really want a lever gun, rifle as opposed to carbine.

So the die is stamped "41 Magnum" but is the die for a straight case or bottlenecked case and what size is the shellholder?

If the die or dies are actually usable for reloading 41 magnum, then you need to get a gun that fires that cartridge unless you already have one. Smith and Wesson models 57, 58, and 657 are very nice, as is the Ruger Blackhawk, Blackhawk Bisley and Redhawk, and the Desert Eagle. along with the JM Marlin and Henry carbines.

 

They are for straight wall cases. It looks like regular old 41 magnum. No shell holder in the box. I guess I could see if I can cross the number.

One thing a little different is that the sizing die is a stand-alone. The primer is popped out and the mouth is flared with the same die.

I really want a lever gun, rifle as opposed to carbine.

"I really want a lever gun, rifle as opposed to carbine."

https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/henry-big-boy-steel/

 

Interesting how time can cloud history.

The 41 Magnum was introduced in a time when police where using 38 S&W Special 158 grain round nose bullets in six shot revolvers. Colt sold more revolvers to police departments before WWII. Smith & Wesson sold more after WWII.

The 158 grain round nose in 38 Special had a long history of failure in police shooting. The ammo makers brought out a hotter load call 38/44 to be use in bigger frame revolvers. The Smith & Wesson developed the 357 S&W Magnum for police use. Better but harder for most officers to use.

Back then there where only two options. Small bullet going fast or big bullet going slower. Very few law enforcement officers used 45 ACP pistol. There were a few agencies using 44 S&W Special and 45 Colt revolvers. The problem with increasing pressure to modernize them is that there were too many old weaker guns around. The idea of the 41 Magnum was to create a "new" never before used large bore revolver. The police load would be a 210 semi wad cutter lead bullet going about 1000 fps or about equal to the old 38-40 Colt round. This had a good reputation as a man stopper. BTW very similar to 40 S&W auto round of today. Because it was new and stronger revolver it could also handled a 210 JHP/JSP hunting load.

Detroit and San Francisco were two major police departments to adopt the 41 mag. S&W also made a fixed sight 4" barrel kind of like a big model 10 revolver.

Me being a young kid at the time always wonder why not make a reduced 44 Magnum round with a 240 grain LSWC-HP going about 900 to 1000 fps.

In fact I still wonder why no one make a 44 magnum self defense round today.

 

.................................................................
In fact I still wonder why no one make a 44 magnum self defense round today.

They do....but it's called .44 Special.

 

Good points, Wyoming. I've often wondered the same thing. Seems to me a good 240gr JHP in the 900-1000 fps range would make for a hell of a good fight stopper. More oomph than a 44 Special, yet still very controllable.

I think it would be a good choice in the new light weight guns such as the S&W 69. Not every big bore shooter is a reloader

 

No not even close. ......................

What I am talking about is something like I load. I use a Hornady soft swage lead semi wad cutter hollow point loaded to 900 fps in a full length 44 magnum case. This is similar to the old 45 Colt black powder round that will do 95% of what needs to be done with a handgun. Easy to shoot...............

.

Seems there are a few .44 Special rounds commercially loaded on this list that meet your velocity and bullet style desires.
http://www.ballistics101.com/44_special.php

But guess not ex-zacly what yer looking for.

Perhaps you're looking for a "lite magnum" instead of a heavy side loading for a "standard" round so you can still be shootin' mag loads??

If you reload, then you should be able to dial in something meeting your wishes in either .44 Special brass, or the big magnum casings if having that head stamp is important to you.

 

Good information. There are several good choices that are NOW available that if the ammo makers would have just brought one of them to market we probably would never heard of the 41 Remington Magnum.

 

Ha-Ha...if S&W never came out with the .41, I'd have 3 less revolvers, one less Marlin 94 and a couple sets of dies!! Long story, but I've been a big fan of the .41 since I was about 14 years old. First center fire handgun I ever shot.

 

Nothing wrong the 41 Magnum. Why go through all the trouble to bring out a .019 inch smaller and a little lighter "44 magnum" round. If the 41 Magnum round had came out first then there would not have been the need for the 44 Magnum.

However it makes about as much sense as the 41 Special custom revolvers being made today if you want to spend your money.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt41spec.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Special

https://ammoseek.com/ammo/41special

 

401 Herter Powermag was even before my time! :fred:

 

Ha=Ha. I used to drool over it while reading the mid-60's Herter's Catalogs. I mentioned how I always wanted one to my nephew a few years ago. Last Christmas he and my older brother gave me one and laughed about how I'd never find ammo for it. Bit of work turning .41 Mag shells into .401s, but they work. Last summer I scored 100 virgin genuine Herter's brass casings for it. It won't win any beauty contest, but it's my favorite for sentimental (just plain "mental"?) reasons.

 

Good 401 Powermag story. Even the 41 Magnum really wasn't a new introduced cartridge as a slightly modified old idea.