What is your goal? After the bullet hits the bad guy do you want to put holes in the neighbors?

When a bullet hits do you want the maximum possibility of dropping the guy without putting holes in the neighbors?

Do you want to shoot bad guys at 700 yards with the most accuracy?

 

What is your goal? After the bullet hits the bad guy do you want to put holes in the neighbors?

When a bullet hits do you want the maximum possibility of dropping the guy without putting holes in the neighbors?

Do you want to shoot bad guys at 700 yards with the most accuracy?

As lighter grains in .223/5.56 FMJ are much cheaper and in more supply, I scouped up a bunch of those over time. Now, I don't have any decent supply of heavier (I'm 1/7 twist) self defense rounds. Moreover, since the Army, except SO units, just uses FMJ, I'd never given much thought about needing a specific bullet for self defense.

I've heard that FMJ had to be used multiple times overseas on one target sometimes more than three, and that switching to a defensive round lowered the number of bullets per target dramatically.

If defensive rounds may be needed and are much more costly, I'd like to learn what some of the jargon means, OTM vs HP, and if self defense rounds are worth the price to buy in larger amounts.

 

Trying to understand what self defense rounds I should try at the range for consistency/accuracy, so I have a few questions.

#1 Do self defense rounds really provide that much added benefit over FMJ?

Yes, but any “rifle” round going over 2,000 feet per second is going to be better than most “handgun calibers”.

#2 OTM, Open Tip Match, is rumored to be not for expansion, but for "match," I don't know what that means, and I thought it was Sig's way of saying "Hollow Point."

#3 Is OTM different in function than HP, hollow point meant for expansion?

The open tip/hollow point on “rifle” bullets is generally part of the manufacturing process. Design is to increase overall accuracy and external ballistic efficiency, not for expansion (a few may be designed to expand, but most are “match”).

In .223/5.56, the 77gr OTM has a history of having good external and terminal ballistics. However, that’s not its intended, original design. It just happens to have a good track record.
In this caliber, the bullets designed to expand tend to be soft pints and among the best are the bonded varieties.

A “bonded“ bullet is where two or more materials are chemically fused together. All bullets of different materials are bonded either mechanically or chemically. Anything advertised as “bonded” should be chemically bonded.

In “handgun” calibers, hollow points are almost always designed for expansion. This causes a lot of confusion among the lesser informed.

#4 What is your preferred self defense .223/5.56 bullet design?

TIA

Gold Dot is 55gr, 62gr, or 75gr
Federal Tactical Bonded 55gr or 62gr
Federal Fusion 62gr
Federal Fusion MSR 62gr

Several of these are the same bullet. That bullet is also available in the XM223SP1.


Someone will be along shortly to tell you all you need is 55gr FMJ or the previously mentioned 77gr OTM. They aren’t wrong, but they aren’t right, either.

 

My home defense and duty loads are bonded soft points. 75 grain Speer Gold Dot in my personal rifles, 64 grain Winchester Bonded Solid Base in my work rifle.

 

I'd follow this guy's advice.

 

Look at what is used in medium game loadings for 223 and 22-250. Soft points, bonded and solids.

Spent a good amount of time and effort looking at what LEAs choose, and why, talking to the Ballisticians at Sierra and Hornady, and doing some Fackler box testing. Then I went and shot Hogs.

First, I want 65 to 77 grains. I saw some failures on heavy shoulders with OTM, but was most pleased with the solids. The bullet I wanted was not loaded in factory ammo at the time, but now is 😎 Barnes 70 grain TSX was very impressive. I still have some of my test ammo left.

But you can buy it now in a factory load.

Ammunition - Product Family - VOR-TX® - Barnes Bullets

www.barnesbullets.com

 

It's cheaper at MidwayUSA...

Barnes VOR-TX 5.56x45mm NATO Ammo 70 Grain Barnes Triple-Shock X Solid

Barnes bullets have historically had the reputation of offering quick, clean and humane kills. Now they are taking their highly regarded bullets to the...

www.midwayusa.com

 

Not sure if you know, but you might consider trying some of the AAC 70gr TSX 5.56 ammo.
At least to see if your rifles like it.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/aac-5-56-nato-70-grain-barnes-tsx-20rd-box-ammunition.html

 

I load mine with Winchester Deer Hunter XP 64 gr. soft point.

 

I think most 55gr spire points will expand in gel with zero neck. Personally, I would like my SD ammo to handle unarmored bad guys optimally, and Spire Points will rip the shiza out of someone.

Also, I used to think SP would be easier on my steel targets, but I discovered that velocity was more a factor. If I keep my practice ammo to 2900fps my targets don't get pocked. When I speed up SP to 3100fps, my targets start getting ugly.

 

OTM by every manufacturer that produces it, doesn’t recommend it for hunting or self defense.

The “open tip” is part of the process for making the bullet co-axial/axially symmetrical, which is important to stability and ballistic consistency.

At high velocities (usually high magnum loads at shorter distances), OTMs may produce significant wounding, but this isn’t the intent of the bullet construction.

Bullets specifically intended to expand produce more consistent results over a greater range of velocities, particularly where impact velocity is “typical rifle velocity” by lower MV, greater distance, or both.

 

OTM by every manufacturer that produces it, doesn’t recommend it for hunting or self defense.

The “open tip” is part of the process for making the bullet co-axial/axially symmetrical, which is important to stability and ballistic consistency.

At high velocities (usually high magnum loads at shorter distances), OTMs may produce significant wounding, but this isn’t the intent of the bullet construction.

Bullets specifically intended to expand produce more consistent results over a greater range of velocities, particularly where impact velocity is “typical rifle velocity” by lower MV, greater distance, or both.

So you recommend a quality ammo like gold dot or hst.

 

Barrel length and twist can come into play. Say a AR pistol w/7" barrel vs a AR rifle with 20" barrel. Or a 1/12 twist vs 1/7 barrel twist.

For .223 vs 5.56 the firearm chamber is the main difference (5.56 is made to cycle full auto and high sustained rates for the military).

The rounds for the most are based on the load, for example the .223 load was exactly the same as the 5.56 M193 that the US Military started out with with 55gr FMJ using a 1/14 to 1/12 twist. But, when FN developed the NATO 5.56 in 1972, as the SS109, the US came up with M855 ball, being a 62gr bullet green tip at higher pressure, and due to heavier tracers used a 1/7 twist. A 1/12 barrel will NOT stabilize a 62 gr round. a 1/9 twist is best for a 62gr round, a 1/6 is best for orange tip tracers (military did 1/7 to split the 62gr, and heavier orange tip tracer). 1/8 twist is seen as the best balance...

Military wise; The 55 gr in a 1/12 to 1/9 twist works well for its ability to tumble on impact, just like the Russian 5.45. The 55gr FMJ is the most lethal overall. The 62 gr green tip ice picks, and goes straight through, small holes and is not that effective. The Mk262 77gr was/is a boat tail hollow point, made for accuracy/long range, and now is called an Open Tip Match for political correctness... The 77 gr is the most accurate and sub MOA, around 0.80" at 100 yards capable (.77 MOA reported by some) and it causes slightly more injury as it separates and tumbles slightly. Then there is the M855A1 metal/copper tipped, that is long, not accurate, and causes a lot of wear and tare on M4/C8's, but its "lead free". There is also armor piercing M955 steel/tungsten tip/core that is legal, but highly regulated...

On the law enforcement side Gold Dot soft points are good and available in a few weights. 62gr is my choice. It expands and does good damage and does not ice pick. Similar to hunting rounds, but holds form well due to being bonded.

Then you have the nylon tips, that. I dont have much experience with, but are a hunting type ammo like the soft points and used in self defense loads.

Application is important with a small caliber centerfire like the .223/5.56. An 11.5" barrel is effective to 15 yards or so, a 16" barrel good to 100 yards, and 20" good to 200 yards (not accuracy, but effective 2000 to 2200 FPS on impact to cause a temporary wound cavity. Some ammo is good on heavy clothing, some good on barriers, etc. M855A1 is good for say use on a vehicle, soft/hard armor, vs M193 being good for ISIS wearing robes...

 

Barrel length and twist can come into play. Say a AR pistol w/7" barrel vs a AR rifle with 20" barrel. Or a 1/12 twist vs 1/7 barrel twist.

For .223 vs 5.56 the firearm chamber is the main difference (5.56 is made to cycle full auto and high sustained rates for the military).

The rounds for the most are based on the load, for example the .223 load was exactly the same as the 5.56 M193 that the US Military started out with with 55gr FMJ using a 1/14 to 1/12 twist. But, when FN developed the NATO 5.56 in 1972, as the SS109, the US came up with M855 ball, being a 62gr bullet green tip at higher pressure, and due to heavier tracers used a 1/7 twist. A 1/12 barrel will NOT stabilize a 55 gr round. a 1/9 twist is best for a 62gr round, a 1/6 is best for orange tip tracers (military did 1/7 to split the 62gr, and heavier orange tip tracer). 1/8 twist is seen as the best balance...

Military wise; The 55 gr in a 1/12 to 1/9 twist works well for its ability to tumble on impact, just like the Russian 5.45. The 55gr FMJ is the most lethal overall. The 62 gr green tip ice picks, and goes straight through, small holes and is not that effective. The Mk262 77gr was/is a boat tail hollow point, made for accuracy/long range, and now is called an Open Tip Match for political correctness... The 77 gr is the most accurate and sub MOA, around 0.80" at 100 yards capable (.77 MOA reported by some) and it causes slightly more injury as it separates and tumbles slightly. Then there is the M855A1 metal/copper tipped, that is long, not accurate, and causes a lot of wear and tare on M4/C8's, but its "lead free". There is also armor piercing M955 steel/tungsten tip/core that is legal, but highly regulated...

On the law enforcement side Gold Dot soft points are good and available in a few weights. 62gr is my choice. It expands and does good damage and does not ice pick. Similar to hunting rounds, but holds form well due to being bonded.

Then you have the nylon tips, that. I dont have much experience with, but are a hunting type ammo like the soft points and used in self defense loads.

Application is important with a small caliber centerfire like the .223/5.56. An 11.5" barrel is effective to 15 yards or so, a 16" barrel good to 100 yards, and 20" good to 200 yards (not accuracy, but effective 2000 to 2200 FPS on impact to cause a temporary wound cavity. Some ammo is good on heavy clothing, some good on barriers, etc. M855A1 is good for say use on a vehicle, soft/hard armor, vs M193 being good for ISIS wearing robes...

Yawn. So you use gold dot for self defense

 

This question has three easy answers:
1. Use a bonded loading marketed for ‘tactical’, LE, or self defense.
2. Use a monolithic loading like the TSX.
3. Use anything marketed as a deer hunting load.

 

Whatever you do don't bother with gimmicks like R.I.P. ammo from G2.
They look viscious and would probably shred a bunny but that's about it.

 

This question has three easy answers:
1. Use a bonded loading marketed for ‘tactical’, LE, or self defense.
2. Use a monolithic loading like the TSX.
3. Use anything marketed as a deer hunting load.

Luckygunner was pretty helpful in explaining which rounds are for paper, vermin, coyotes, deer, and self defense. I noticed some were labled deer only, some self defense only, and some a combo of deer and self defense.

The self defense only rounds are significantly higher in cost. Then there's Good for deer, but not ideal for self defense? Huh? Those are expensive as well. However, ones marked for both deer and S.D. were significantly cheaper.
More to study today.

 

I have soft points 62-64 grains for personal defense. The Barnes copper bullets get great reviews from hunters. I just ordered a few boxes of the VOR-TEX from Cabela's and need to make sure that they don't key hole.

 

For 223/5.56 bullet selection really depends on what your specific needs are. Most of the unbonded soft points with be poor in the penetration department, but are good when that is important.

Bonded or copper bullets are important if there are barriers present, but are very likely to exit the intended target.

Generally, for self defense at close in distances I don't see a big enough difference to justify anything other than M193. It provides good terminal ballistics and you will be well within its fragmentation threshold so overpenetration shouldn't be a concern.

For LE patrol duty, I use Hornady TAP 53gr Patrol, which is a solid copper bullet but vehicle barriers are my concern there.

 

For 223/5.56 bullet selection really depends on what your specific needs are. Most of the unbonded soft points with be poor in the penetration department, but are good when that is important.

Bonded or copper bullets are important if there are barriers present, but are very likely to exit the intended target.

For LE patrol duty, I use Hornady TAP 53gr Patrol, which is a solid copper bullet but vehicle barriers are my concern there.

You might look into the M855A1 ammo. Make sure it’s the copper point and not the original tin mix that looks more gray than gold. It has great barrier penetration (long/heavy/solid tip).
It’s not as accurate as some claim, but can penetrate well. Hollywood bank robbery, light armor vehicles like first used in Iraq, it does well against. I just recommend it be a quality/mil spec barrel, and only shoot a few rounds to check how the point of impact matches with your zero.

If I was still in law enforcement, I would have a magazine with 20-30 M855A1 rounds, as armor is more prevalent today. Your agency might be able to get some surplus for free (you can buy them on line too).

If M955 ammo was more available, I would probably have a few of those, as they do what they are designed to do.

 

Bonded soft point or barnes tsx seems to be the way to go according to federal. The 77 gr black hills OTM has proven itself in combat also. The 77 tmk probably would too.

 

Trying to understand what self defense rounds I should try at the range for consistency/accuracy, so I have a few questions.

#1 Do self defense rounds really provide that much added benefit over FMJ?

#2 OTM, Open Tip Match, is rumored to be not for expansion, but for "match," I don't know what that means, and I thought it was Sig's way of saying "Hollow Point."

#3 Is OTM different in function than HP, hollow point meant for expansion?

#4 What is your preferred self defense .223/5.56 bullet design?

TIA

We had very good performance and results with Gold Dots in 55, 62, or 75 grain. I personally think 75 is best but it’s unobtanium lately. Great performance and very accurate for a bonded SP.

62 grain Federal TBBC is absolutely outstanding and well proven. 62 Grain Fusion is excellent as well. Basically it’s a 62 grain Gold Dot in all but name.

I have no real experience with the all copper rounds like Barnes, but I hear they‘re pretty good stuff.

I only shoot the bulk stuff, like 193 or 855 for example, for training. Now being retired, my SD/HD ammo happens to be 62 grain Fusion MSR at the moment, but that’s only because I’m out of Gold Dots. I’d be happy with any of the bonded SPs I mentioned, favoring the heavier stuff if it’s available.

I would not select OTM, TSK, or HP, match or otherwise, unless a good bonded SP or TSX type wasn’t available.

 

I could recommend Speer GD 62 gr, it’s barrier blind and it’s definitely a tough bullet. It runs well and it’s accurate enough. It’s .223 rather than .556. Hornady varmint express is one I also shoot. Plastic tipped with limited penetration, typically disintegrating at contact. Large wounds with limited penetration (7” on average) . I have a bunch of mil surplus and wouldn’t hesitate to use the 55 FMJ M193 thru a 1/7 twist. I have some Barnes stuff but haven’t shot any of it.
It’s copper bullet on top of a .556 charge. 77 grain bullet I think, I’m not even sure I can run these heavier, longer bullets thru my Colt. There are plenty of very experienced rifle shooters on this forum, I’m not one of them 😂 but I’ve learned a bunch on this by reading here, online and buying and shooting…I seriously enjoy the AR platform though.

 

I could recommend Speer GD 62 gr, it’s barrier blind and it’s definitely a tough bullet. It runs well and it’s accurate enough. It’s .223 rather than .556. Hornady varmint express is one I also shoot. Plastic tipped with limited penetration, typically disintegrating at contact. Large wounds with limited penetration (7” on average) . I have a bunch of mil surplus and wouldn’t hesitate to use the 55 FMJ M193 thru a 1/7 twist. I have some Barnes stuff but haven’t shot any of it.
It’s copper bullet on top of a .556 charge. 77 grain bullet I think, I’m not even sure I can run these heavier, longer bullets thru my Colt. There are plenty of very experienced rifle shooters on this forum, I’m not one of them 😂 but I’ve learned a bunch on this by reading here, online and buying and shooting…I seriously enjoy the AR platform though.

When you said: "I’m not even sure I can run these heavier, longer bullets thru my Colt," I imagine that you are referring to a 20" 1:12 twist?
If so, many have said one reason the 5.56 was so effective, initially when it was released decades ago, is because the bullet tumbles. I assumed that meant once it hit the body, but I could be wrong. Maybe they tumble before they hit the target?
Anyhow, I'd try doing so just to see what happens.

 

I use 5.56 M193 55gr FMJ for almost everything. It's my general-purpose load.

In my 11.5" 5.56 upper, I handload Hornady 55gr GMX (which is now called CX) for penetrating light barriers, and Hornady 55gr V-Max for soft targets. Both are tipped bullets. GMX/CX is a monolithic guilding metal bullet, and V-Max is a traditional copper-jacket, lead core bullet.

OTM is military legal jargon for hollowpoint. Hollowpoint bullets generally have better accuracy than other designs. In my 6.8 SPC upper, I handload Hornady .277 caliber 110gr OTM-WC for deer hunting. It expands reliably. (It used to be 115gr years ago, when 6.8 SPC first came out, then Hornady decreased it's weight to 110gr. Hornady recently changed its descriptor from "OTM-WC" to "BTHP".)

(However, the Sierra .30 caliber 168gr Matchking hollowpoint bullet is designed for accuracy and not expansion, and it doesn't expand.)

Softpoints:

• Per the FBI, softpoints are okay out to about 100yds. Beyond that they'll start to lose accuracy because their soft noses are deformed during the AR's feeding process. The longer the distance the more they lose accuracy.
• Per California Highway Patrol, softpoints can cause lead buildup on the feedramps, which can cause failure to feed stoppages.

 

Softpoints:

• Per the FBI, softpoints are okay out to about 100yds. Beyond that they'll start to lose accuracy because their soft noses are deformed during the AR's feeding process. The longer the distance the more they lose accuracy. - This is a blanket statement that isn't necessarily accurate. I have consistently hit 12" plates at 600 yards using factory Federal 90gr Fusion MSR rounds out of my AR-based 224 Valkyrie. Different bullet weights/manufacturers may yield different results. As with any round, try it in your rifle and see if it works.
• Per California Highway Patrol, softpoints can cause lead buildup on the feedramps, which can cause failure to feed stoppages. - Perhaps Ponch should clean his rifle better.

 

You guys might be over thinking this.

 

Is that the bullet exiting the target?

I wonder how much power is left in a bullet after going all the way through someone.

 

How is availability and price of .223 /5.56x45 SD rounds?

Back when I was trying to decide I found a lot of choices but they were pretty high dollar. I can't recall exact cost per round - close to or slightly over $2 - and it isn't the cost of loading a few mags, I wanted to shoot a fair amount in 3 different ARs to make sure they ran 100%.

I decided Federal Fusion MSR in 62 grain - then couldn't find any that were available. I can't recall my second choice but they were also on the unobtainium list.

I ended up finding a deal on Speer Gold Dots in 62 grain - reviews looked good and the sale made the cost reasonable.

The only problem was I thought I still had close to 200 rounds - then realized I had fat fingered my spread sheet and only have 100 rounds left. Have tried a few times to find some - none in stock.

I would start with the ammo that is available to purchase - pick a name brand soft point 62+ grains - watch a few videos on them - and then buy more than you think you will need.

Doing it the way I did, deciding which one first only to discover they are $2.50 a round or simply out of stock was a waste of time.

 

I picked my SD rounds from military veteran family member reports, things my cops Dad taught me and reports of people like Massad Ayoob. My loaded ARs have five rounds of V-Max 55 gr followed by the rest in 62gr FMJBT.
I live very much in the country. Not worried much about over penetration.

 

I typically go for either a bonded bullet or JSP in .223/5.56... and .308.

 

What you are doing is citing old theories that are not valid anymore. Techniques, technologies and the ability to measure improve. The CT scans and virtual autopsy dissuade last century theories.

 

And to prove your point you posted, what? Since you didn't identify your source, I did a Google search and found the exact same information, word for word, on "Bev Fitchett's Guns" web page, which cites the Thompson/La Garde tests from 1904, Hatcher's Stopping Power theories from the 1920s and 1930s, the LEAA Relative Incapacitation Index from the 1970s, and the laughable Strasbourg Tests of the 1990s.

Unfortunately, your argument is from the 1990's, and it has been thoroughly disproved.

I'm challenging your argument so others, who ARE interested, can learn for themselves.

 

Trying to understand what self defense rounds I should try at the range for consistency/accuracy, so I have a few questions.

#1 Do self defense rounds really provide that much added benefit over FMJ?
Depends. The fact that FMJ frags is good. But a shot that hits the arm or hits the enemy at a sideways angle may stop before it penetrates enough to stop them. Also if the target is taking cover it may not penetrate cover as good as other rounds.

#2 OTM, Open Tip Match, is rumored to be not for expansion, but for "match," I don't know what that means, and I thought it was Sig's way of saying "Hollow Point."
Heavy OTM bullets like 77gr SMK were designed to be very accurate at long range paper targets in matches. But hits on gel, and deer, and hogs, and enemy soldiers, have done great, it penetrates deep and expands very nice. For a swaged target bullet, the hit results on not paper targets are very acceptable.

#3 Is OTM different in function than HP, hollow point meant for expansion?
OTM is just a hollow point designed for long range shooting competition.

#4 What is your preferred self defense .223/5.56 bullet design?
77 gr SMK.
62 gr Federal Bonded or TBBC.
64 gr or 75 gr Gold Dot.
70 gr TMX or GMX

TIA

 

77 gr SMK.
62 gr Federal Bonded or TBBC.
64 gr or 75 gr Gold Dot.
70 gr TMX or GMX

I think that is your list. That is a darn good list to choose from.

 

I might note, for the readers of this thread, that there is also a significant difference between pistol (which the citations above from Fackler reference) and rifle rounds. Now that we have better methods to test and measure the differences, most of the strenuous, and often convoluted, work on pistol wound theory, in hindsight, did not do much for us. There is no magic bullet and the data now illustrates that shot placement is more important overall than which service caliber, and bullet, is use. Much less work on .223 effectiveness has been disseminated into the public realm.

Hark back to Marshall and Sanow and the that was slung at them for what was arguably, the first attempt at trying the figure this out. Hats off for getting the ball rolling. I had the pleasure of discussing the old, and the new theories with Marshall many years ago. But, even then, there was a LARGE gap between "long gun" rounds and pistol. Almost all pistol rounds have, as generally understood by ballistics experts, a marginal effectiveness at stopping a threat with even one well placed shot and much less with a poorly placed shot. Counter to 223 and slugs, even a poor shot with a marginal bullet is a better stopper than any service pistol shot.

Do you want to split hairs in the 20-30 percent effective range, or do you want to split hairs in the 90%+ effective range? Buckshot lies somewhere closer to slugs and the 223 than the pistols, but still not as effective (overall) as the slug and .223.

 

I might note, for the readers of this thread, that there is also a significant difference between pistol (which the citations above from Fackler reference) and rifle rounds. Now that we have better methods to test and measure the differences, most of the strenuous, and often convoluted, work on pistol wound theory, in hindsight, did not do much for us. There is no magic bullet and the data now illustrates that shot placement is more important overall than which service caliber, and bullet, is use. Much less work on .223 effectiveness has been disseminated into the public realm.

Wounding Patterns of Military Rifle Bullets, Martin L. Fackler
Click here to read Fackler's paper

Time for a Change: U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition Failures and Solutions, Gary K. Roberts
Click here to read Roberts' paper