Razor made a post on his facebook page wherein he mentioned using Hornady Factory loads. If that load punched thru an ELK I wonder what our hotter handloads could do?

 

...

There is no reason to buy a .300 win mag for elk unless you are up high and in wide open country and you expect to be making shots in excess of 300 yards...

I think this is the only place you and I agree. Even at 300 yds a 300 win mag is NOT required. Too many people drink the large magnum kool aid and think that will make up for a lack of skill.

I don't own a rifle bigger than .22LR anymore.

I only bought that recently because I *reluctantly* really wanted to shoot a rifle again.

I absolutely don't need the .22LR, it is a fix for an embarrassing shooting addiction that I have.

I could kill an elk with that too, but its not legal. :wavey:

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

 

I was out looking for elk antlers on the ground one day when I looked up and seen a dozen or more huge bull and cow elk walking around... all I had was a .357 mag and was very humbled, they were less than 50 yards away. I would never hike again without my 10mm. These things are HUGE!

 

Is 10mm ethical for hunting an Elk? I know a guy here in Utah that went hunting with his G20, I know he has some max loads worked up. What are the thoughts from the 10 ringers on hunting elk with a G20?

Sorry I didn't want to hijack the other hunting thread.

Since you are asking for opinions, I will share mine. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Also, for a person with the skill who knows the limitations to do this, it isn't unethical, but for a person without the skills or unwilling to stop where his limitations require, I would say unethical.

In my state, you can hunt deer legally with any centerfire rifle or pistol cartridge. That means you could legally take a deer with a .25 auto pocket pistol. And given enough tries, and enough wounded and lost deer, a person just might be able to do it. But that doesn't make it ethical.

I honestly believe that, if it were legal, I have the skills to make a head shot with my .22LR out to 50 yards and cleanly kill a deer or an elk. But since I have a couple of high power rifles, I personally couldn't justify doing that.

I have seen hunts go bad over the years, even had a few myself when I did everything right, so there's no guarantees when you pull the trigger. My hunting philosophy has progressed over the years as I have learned, and I believe that I do things better now, for better reasons, than I did way back when.

Ethics is a personal matter of personal responsibility...what one man considers ethical another may not. That's why restrictions are placed on barrel lengths and minimum calibers, etc. It's an attempt by the states to steer hunters in the right direction (ethical hunting) without necessarily dictating a "one size fits all" requirement. It's still up to the individual in most states to determine a hunting method that they are comfortable with considering their own skills.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

I think 10mm is a bit weak for such a large animal.

 

IF you just go elk hunting all the time and get shots at them every year then yeah why not give it a try? If you are spending 1,000 on tags and travel etc for the hunt of a lifetime then I would want something that is more then marginal and could offer you more range.

I think it is more a matter of your shooting ability rather then the round. I know I couldn't shoot a pie plate every single time past 25 yards but a real pistolero can hit them out to 100. Additionaly, not every G-20 is accurate enough to shoot very far even if you can. my lone wolf 40 sw barrel can group 1/2 the size of the stock 10mm barrel. An aftermarket barrel could help improve accuracy and extend you effective range and you can run hotter loads.

 

Originally posted by mtn_hunter:

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

mtn_hunter

Your making assumptions about Kegs that simply aren't true.
Kegs has in past threads stated that he uses a 4.75 inch aftermarket barrel to reach the minimum energy requirement and to comply with state law on barrel length. At least have the common courtesy to ask how one will comply with state law rather than assume that one will be breaking it.


Xmm

 

Dig the 6" lone wolf look + Underwood power.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibh4EmwP9E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vibh4EmwP9E[/ame]

Turn that 10 up to 11! Still I would go rifle. But to each his own. Tap rack and fire!

 

I don't own a rifle bigger than .22LR anymore.

I only bought that recently because I *reluctantly* really wanted to shoot a rifle again.

I absolutely don't need the .22LR, it is a fix for an embarrassing shooting addiction that I have.

I could kill an elk with that too, but its not legal. :wavey:

It's not the elks fault you don't own the right gun for the job. Don't make him suffer because of it. Please video tape it when he tramples you.

 

Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

 

Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

:brickwall: Myself... I wouldnt hesitate doing a bow-hunt for elk. I would never consider a 10mm handgun though.

 

Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

Because Energy is the end all to lethality. :upeyes: But no, I wouldn't do it with a bow either.

 

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

No sir.

My G29 has a KKM barrel on it that is 4.45"

 

Is it ethical to hunt elk with a compound bow generating 65 to 70 foot pounds of energy?

There are a LOT of folks in the Rockies that won't hunt any other way.

There was a time I was a very good shot with a bow (I still like to shoot, but don't own one since the last one got stolen), but I don't care for the way it kills and I wouldn't use one to kill an elk.

"Ethical shooting" means you don't take the shot if you are not absolutely certain (considerations within reason) that the shot you are able to make will be a kill shot. I opened the replies on this (reply #2) thread spelling that out pretty clearly.

I also replied to the XDtalk thread with a more thorough reply than I have on here.

Maybe I should cut and paste, but the reason I replied so thoroughly on there is because you guys (at least most of you) at least know this cartridge pretty well. Since Springfield XDs are not available in 10mm, most of those forum folks are lacking that info, so I explained that to them.

 

Originally posted by mtn_hunter:

Yes, that is illegal just like hunting elk with a barrel shorter than 4" (in Colorado) which you seem to be promoting.

mtn_hunter

Your making assumptions about Kegs that simply aren't true.
Kegs has in past threads stated that he uses a 4.75 inch aftermarket barrel to reach the minimum energy requirement and to comply with state law on barrel length. At least have the common courtesy to ask how one will comply with state law rather than assume that one will be breaking it.


Xmm

Sorry I didn't read all of his posts of this forum :upeyes: Not too much of an assumption either. Read my first post #8 where I first pointed out the barrel requirement in CO after Kegs partially quoted other parts of the regs. I even stated he should have an aftermarket barrel. No response.

No sir.

My G29 has a KKM barrel on it that is 4.45"

Sincerely glad to hear that.

 

I've killed one with a 357, but not because I wanted to. It had been hit by a truck was messed up. It dropped like a sack of potatos.

 

Razor made a post on his facebook page wherein he mentioned using Hornady Factory loads. If that load punched thru an ELK I wonder what our hotter handloads could do?

I loaded up a 200xtp to 1240ish fps and it punched through 6 water filled milk jugs and kept going. I wish I had put 7 up instead.

Of course this doesn't tell us anything about what it can punch through animal wise, since I did the same thing with my 1700 fps 135 nosler load and it only could punch through 2 milk jugs, yet it was a through and through on a decent sized doe - but the shot was placed properly.

Look, if you put a 5/8 hole (assuming expansion) just lower than and just behind the shoulder of any animal, piercing its lungs and heart, it will not have a chance to run more than 100y or so before it expires - and more than likely, it won't go 25. There is no animal in the lower 48 that has a hide that can resist that kind of force.

Razor said his round penetrated the shoulder of an elk and kept going until it was just on the inside of the other side of the elk's hide. Just behind the shoulder, there isn't anything but rib bones in there, and they won't stop the bullet - the bullet will expand, dumping maximum energy while in there, disrupting tissue and doing fairly major shock to the animal, then exiting the other side, causing 2 holes, making an easy to follow blood trail that will indeed be a short trail.


What matters for the kill is bullet placement - assuming you have a bullet big enough and fast enough to resist the rib bones (IF it hits any) and juicy bits and dump enough energy in there to disrupt tissue to make the important organs fail.

 

I loaded up a 200xtp to 1240ish fps and it punched through 6 water filled milk jugs and kept going. I wish I had put 7 up instead.

Of course this doesn't tell us anything about what it can punch through animal wise, since I did the same thing with my 1700 fps 135 nosler load and it only could punch through 2 milk jugs, yet it was a through and through on a decent sized doe - but the shot was placed properly.

Look, if you put a 5/8 hole (assuming expansion) just lower than and just behind the shoulder of any animal, piercing its lungs and heart, it will not have a chance to run more than 100y or so before it expires - and more than likely, it won't go 25. There is no animal in the lower 48 that has a hide that can resist that kind of force.

Razor said his round penetrated the shoulder of an elk and kept going until it was just on the inside of the other side of the elk's hide. Just behind the shoulder, there isn't anything but rib bones in there, and they won't stop the bullet - the bullet will expand, dumping maximum energy while in there, disrupting tissue and doing fairly major shock to the animal, then exiting the other side, causing 2 holes, making an easy to follow blood trail that will indeed be a short trail.


What matters for the kill is bullet placement - assuming you have a bullet big enough and fast enough to resist the rib bones (IF it hits any) and juicy bits and dump enough energy in there to disrupt tissue to make the important organs fail.

I think you pretty well explained how things need to go in order to get that ethical shot. That is true regardless of cartridge. It is much easier in most instances to place a shot with a rifle, so for most people that would mean relegating the 10mm to finishing shot duty.

A lot of hunters that I know only shoot once per year to get a zero on their rifles before the hunt. Those guys should not hunt with a pistol. Just yesterday I was talking to such a once-a-year shooter that hunts elk with a big magnum. I encouraged him to shoot more frequently so that he could firt get good DOPE on his rifle/load and then 1) determine how to range, and then 2) compute a firing solution 3) make a scope or hold adjustment 4) take a clean shot.

His response was that when hunting the adrenaline would preclude him from going through the cadence so what is the use. He would be too excited and just want to send a shot. This was the guy who is known to have dumped two mags toward a deer and missed everything. He then traded in the magnum for a bigger magnum because the first wasnt acurate. THUD!

So I cannot disagree with your assessment that a well-placed hot 10mm load would usually act like you describe. Most shooters probably should not take that shot with a pistol in my opinion.

FWIW, I have shot a 200 grain WFNGC hardcast bullet through 7 gallon jugs and it kept going. It probably would have cleared eight. I want to re-test when I stockpile more jugs. Penetration with that bullet it not a problem.

 

"Ethical shooting" means you don't take the shot if you are not absolutely certain (considerations within reason) that the shot you are able to make will be a kill shot. I opened the replies on this (reply #2) thread spelling that out pretty clearly.

No offense......but I disagree. That may be your definition, which is fine; however, you back track in your definition. You use the words 'absolutely certain' then back off with the caveat 'considerations within reason'. There is no way to know the shot you are taking will be 'a kill shot'.

I'm not nitpicking, but illustrating how there is no definition of an 'Ethical Shooting' within the laws. In some states, shooting after dark is illegal; IMHO, those that break this law has committed this unethical shot.

:wavey:

red

 

I have seen hunters shoot 40 yards with a rifle at an elk and flanked him. It seemed like he was taking an ethical shot but he wounded the animal. It my be fair to say it wasnt ethical for him to shoot that far. Key is I think is to get out and practice and know your limits and don't go beyond them!


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…Key is I think is to get out and practice and know your limits and don't go beyond them!


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This.

Precisely.

 

Got a cow in 2011 with my 10mm. 200 gr Nosler under 9.0 gr of 800-X for about 1200 fps. First shot at about 60 yds and she kind of hunched up. Two more shots and she was down for good. Recovered one bullet under the hide on the far side. 2 lung shots and one high in the body cavity. Most handguns are "under powered" compared to rifle rounds. But if you are a confident shot and can wait for good shot placements it will take an elk down.

 

Got a cow in 2011 with my 10mm. 200 gr Nosler under 9.0 gr of 800-X for about 1200 fps. First shot at about 60 yds and she kind of hunched up. Two more shots and she was down for good. Recovered one bullet under the hide on the far side. 2 lung shots and one high in the body cavity. Most handguns are "under powered" compared to rifle rounds. But if you are a confident shot and can wait for good shot placements it will take an elk down.

Good hunting report. I love to eat elk.

You might consider copying this over on the stickied 10mm hunting thread for the sake of posterity.

EDIT: How did that Nosler do? Mushroom? Retained mass? Would you select that bullet again?

 

Good hunting report. I love to eat elk.

You might consider copying this over on the stickied 10mm hunting thread for the sake of posterity.

EDIT: How did that Nosler do? Mushroom? Retained mass? Would you select that bullet again?

Perfect mushroom and did not have jacket separation. I think with a bull tag I would go with a 200gr cast. I need to get a moose with the 10mm one day and no doubt I would go cast bullet. BTW, 99.5% of the handgunning that I do, I do it with cast bullets that I cast myself so I have nothing against cast bullets.

 

My vote is for yes. But only if you have the marksmanship to do it cleanly. For where I hunt(Eastern Washington) I don't think I've ever got close enough for a pistol. Now my .300 WinMag had no trouble last year at 250 yds