I'm interested too. I imagine they're referring to full power 10mm loads as "magnum" and not another cartridge altogether.

 

In the thread about the .44 special GP100, someone posted some pictures that showed (I thought) a longer casing. There was also talk of just seating bullets further out.

 

10mm does not even come close to .41 magnum ballistics.

 

They didn't seem to be talking about your regular 10mm.

 

DT lists 10mm magnum loads. The case is supposed to be longer, sources list it as being 1.255 vs .990 for the normal 10mm.

 

Is DT Double Tap?

 

The 10mm magnum is a longer case than the 10mm Norma. More powder, more vel. it is pretty much the equal of a 41mag.

 

I just checked Starline brass. They do have 10mm magnum brass. It says theat it is longer than regular 10mm and can not be used in a 10mm automatic. So who makes a gun you can use 10mm magnum in?

 

In the thread I referenced, they were talking about revolvers.

 

AMT made a 10mm magnum semi auto at one time.


http://www.ammo-one.com/10mmMagnum.html

 

Thanks, I did not know that. DT lists their ammo as revolver loads.

 

The .41 Magnum is to me a very interesting revolver caliber, the same as the .327 Magnum is.

If I ever decide to own a revolver ...

 

If you compare different calibers and do it right you have to
compare the best of them all and also use the same barrel
length.

Also do you count special high pressure loads that are only for
special barrels with full support, everything has to be considered.

When using loads for revolvers as with all guns some guns are
capable of much more pressure than others.

With technology we have now you can get more power with
safe pressure but the the guns can't stand the recoil.

That is why we have special load data for some guns that is
not for others in the same caliber.

 

If I recall correctly, there were some guys that did some work to their S&W 610s and were shooting the 10mm Mag out of them.

I am a 10mm fan, a bigger .41Mag fan and I have a .414 SuperMag as well. That will wake you up in a hurry.

 

That's the 2nd cartridge (.414 SM) I heard about for the 1st time today. Would you talk about it a bit?

 

I know what a 10mm Magnum is but I don't have any experience with it. I did have a few .41 Magnums not that long ago, my take is that the .41 Mag will definitely best a 10mm Magnum.

The problem with the 10mm Magnum is that at the end of the day, you're essentially using .40 S&W bullets just pushed faster, the reason that's bad is that those bullets really aren't designed for such velocities. The .41 Mag is different altogether, even though bullet selection is small, at least the bullets are designed for it.

Looking over my handload data, from a 7.5" Super Blackhawk the most powerful .41 Mag I loaded was a 265gr hardcast that averaged around 1525 fps. No 10mm will come close, not even a 10mm Mag.

 

I know what a 10mm Magnum is but I don't have any experience with it. I did have a few .41 Magnums not that long ago, my take is that the .41 Mag will definitely best a 10mm Magnum.

The problem with the 10mm Magnum is that at the end of the day, you're essentially using .40 S&W bullets just pushed faster, the reason that's bad is that those bullets really aren't designed for such velocities. The .41 Mag is different altogether, even though bullet selection is small, at least the bullets are designed for it.

Looking over my handload data, from a 7.5" Super Blackhawk the most powerful .41 Mag I loaded was a 265gr hardcast that averaged around 1525 fps. No 10mm will come close, not even a 10mm Mag.

If using a 10mm mag for hunting, most would go wnlfp, 200-220gr. Then you are right in there with a 41mag. I have a 57, wish i had also gotten a 58.

 

I haven't shot any of my .41s in years. Used to be my favorite caliber out of the standard mag triumvirate when I first started BG pistol hunting 40+ years ago. Then one day I bought a used .45 Colt saa and, with a little judicious reloading, found out what manageable killing power was all about.

 

From Starline Brass:
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/10MM-Mag-Brass/
10MM Mag Brass (Large Pistol primer)

10mm Magnum, 10mm Magnum Brass, 10 Mag Brass, 10mm Mag Brass
1.242 - 1.248 O.A.L.
The 10MM Magnum Brass is a heavy duty, lengthened 10MM Auto. CANNOT BE USED IN STANDARD 10MM PISTOL.

Box Size:
• 500 ($127.00)
• 1000 ($217.00)

Status: Available Now
Order

 

I haven't shot any of my .41s in years. Used to be my favorite caliber out of the standard mag triumpherate when I first started BG pistol hunting 40+ years ago. Then one day I bought a used .45 Colt saa and, with a little judicious reloading, found out what manageable killing power was all about.

"triumpherate": What a great word for those three. I like it.

 

The .41 Magnum is a powerful revolver cartridge ... comparable to the 44 Magnum
A full power 41 Mag is more for hunting and animal defense .
A reduced power round was designed for LE ... But the draw back was N sized framed revolvers ..
The LE 41 Magnum designed cartridge is comparable to a full power 10mm ..

 

The .41 Magnum is a powerful revolver cartridge ... comparable to the 44 Magnum
A full power 41 Mag is more for hunting and animal defense .
A reduced power round was designed for LE ... But the draw back was N sized framed revolvers ..
The LE 41 Magnum designed cartridge is comparable to a full power 10mm ..

If that's the fact, Jack, if I ever consider a dedicated woods gun I will shop around for a G-29.

 

Thats what I did ...

 

Everything depends on case capacity. A .308 has 56 gr H2O case capacity. A 30-06 has 68 gr H2O case capacity. A .308 can drive lighter 150 grain bullets almost as fast as a 30-06, but nowhere near as fast with 180 grain bullets.

Similarly a 10mm auto develops 1400 fps 675 ft lb with a 155 grain bullet while the 150 grain load also from from doubletap, in the .40 S&W comes within 100 fps at 1317fps 580 ft/lbs and the 135 grain bullet comes closer yet in terms of velocity, 1375fps, but it's a trade-off between bullet weight, mass, and more impressive numbers on the Chronograph.

A similar relationship exists between the standard 10mm auto and the 10mm MAGNUM auto, which is essentially a rimless 41 magnum but with a .035 inch shorter case.

.40 S&W: case length .850 case capacity 19.3 gr H2O
10mm auto: case length .990 case capacity 24.1 gr H2O
10mm magnum: case length 1.255 case capacity 29 gr. H20 approximate
.41 Magnum: case length 1.290 case capacity 31 gr. H20 approximate
.44 Magnum case capacity 38.6 gr H2O

 

I see a couple issues with the 10mm mag, each can be worked around but I don't see a point when the 41 mag is already good to go.

The first issue I see with the 10mm mag revolver is the rimless case design. When I start leaning on the pressures I need a good crimp and the 10mm mag unless using moon clips will require a taper crimp. Roll crimps are stronger leading to better ignition and they are better at keeping the other rounds bullets in place during recoil. Even my heavy 357 loads will jump crimp without a solid roll crimp. Moon clips can be used to allow for a roll crimp but that's just something additional needed when the 41 doesn't have that issue. The 41 when loaded full is a frisky little round even in a big frame gun when you get 300gr bullet at over 1300fps and you will need that solid crimp.

The other issue that has already been stated is bullets. Most 40 cal bullets are maxed out with 10mm velocities. Some cast bullets could be pushed harder i'm sure but the jhp 10mm bullets would be hard pressed to maintain integrity at higher velocities. The other issues with the bullets is the lack of a crimp groove to work with the needed roll crimp stated above. One could size down 41 mag bullets or have a custom mold made to have a crimp groove but that is again another step needed to get the 10mm mag to come close to the 41.

 

In a revolver, there isn't much point to the !0mm mag unless you happen to have one of those Smith & Wesson model 610 revolvers chambered for the 40 S&W and 10mm Auto and you want to get even more versatility out of it. The moon clips solve both the rimless case problem along with the roll crimp problem at the same time.

As far as the bullet construction problem, I think a 200 grain Hornady XTP could withstand a little added velocity and even if you had to throttle it down halfway between what a 41 magnum can do and what a 10mm auto can do, you'd still be ahead of the game and have more than enough raw power for any self-defense scenerio you were likely to encounter. Here is a video where they test the Underwoods 10mm auto load out of a G20 that does `1250 fps and expands in a nice mushroom to a large .670 diameter:

The biggest problem I see with the 10mm mag is that it's strictly a revolver cartridge unless you happen to have one of the rare and tempermental AMT/IAI pistols and could never be chambered in a Glock because it has a max OAL of 1.555 while the 10mm auto has a an OAL of 1.260 which is all the magazine will accommodate. But then there's the 40 super, which can be loaded to the same OAL as the 10mm but in a fatter bottleneck case, and is loaded to 1400fps with a 200 gr XTP by Underwood.

And since the 40 super is based on the 45 ACP case head size, the 40 Super conversion barrels have an outside diameter made for a G21. I don't have the case capacity of the 40 super to compare to that of the 10 mm mag but I would estimate that it probably comes fairly close, and if underwood feels comfortable in pushing 200 grain XTP's to 1400 FPS in the 40 Super, maybe that's good news for anyone who want's to re-chamber their S&W 610 to 10mm mag and drive the 200 grain XTP's to high velocities.

 

And since the 40 super is based on the 45 ACP case head size, the 40 Super conversion barrels have an outside diameter made for a G21.

I wouldn't bet my life on it but I think the G20 and G21 have the same OD barrel, but the chamber is larger on the G21 the best I can remember.

 

If you compare a 2" short barreled .41 Mag revolver to a Glock 20 10mm, you will have similar performance.

I know the OP was referring to the magnum 10mm cartridge, and not the standard 10mm, but for a short barreled gun there probably isn't an advantage.

In this thread, post 43 at the bottom, I chronographed 41 mag out of a short barreled S&W revolver: http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/41-magnum-bullets-in-a-10mm/43/ .

That tests shows that 41 magnum from a short barrel is close to 10mm from the same "size" gun. When I say size, I mean overall size, and not barrel length. A 2" snubby 41 mag revolver is basically the same size as a Glock 20, but the revolver is a little wider.

 

First of all, the majority of 41 magnums do not have short barrels and the Night guard model is fairly rare and I can't find it in the current S&W line-up. Secondly, the velocity differential is only true of certain loads. With the 175 gr. silvertip 10 mm load, My Glock 20 develops higher velocities than my model 58 Smith & Wesson 4 inch barrel with the 175 gr. 41 mag silvertip. The Winchester silvertip loads for both 41 and 44 magnum are both relatively low-velocity loads in both those calibers, but in 10mm, the silvertip load is faster than the Hornady, federal, PMC or Remington load in the same 175-180gr weight.

But with the heavier bullet loads the 41 magnum comes close to the 44 magnum even out of a shorter barrel and is capable of a lot more power than the 10mm can produce with heavier bullets. The average velocity loss or gain is 50 fps per barrel inch and the 41 magnum with bullets weighing 220 grains up to 250 grains can launch those bullet weights at more than 200 fps faster than the 10mm can and 230 grains is about the limit for the 10mm because a 250 grain bullet would have to be seated so deep in the case to fit in the magazine that there wouldn't be enough room for very much powder.

Glock Talk is supposed to be publishing an article of mine in the articles section next week that will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about the 41 magnum (including a comparison to the 10mm) but were afraid to ask. The 41 magnum and I go way back and I'm also a huge fan of the 10mm and the Glocks 20 and 29.

 

Didn't Wildey market a 10mm Magnum...Or is this the same thing?

 

No, just the barrel O.D. Is the same between the 20 and 21; the square chamber is larger on the 21.Lone Wolf doesn't even make a 10mm conversion barrel for the 21 which means a 20 barrel or Lone Wolf G20 has to be used.

 

The Barrels on my G20 and G21 are the same external size except for the tang/hood at the rear that mates with the breechface cutout.

So I would guess they are not interchangeable either way because the chamber end of a G21 barrel would be too big at the breech end to fit in a G20 slide and a G20 barrel would be too small of a fit in the G21 slide unless they were the same dimensions front to back.

What I want to know is will a Glock 21 barrel work in my Glock 20? It seems like most people are ,more interested on putting a 120mm barrel in their 45 than there are people who want to put a 45 barrel in their 10mm.

And it doesn't even seem like anyone makes a 45 barrel to go into a G20, so I suspect that it isn't possible.

 

The hood is too big on the 45 barrel to work in
the g20.

I have done most of what is on these threads, they
will answer your questions.

http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/grt45-archive.1421823/#post-22283466

http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/glock-30-30sf-30s-information.1421425/

Barrel manufacturer KKM recommends some minor gunsmith work on the stock .45 extractor that enables it to function more reliably for 10mm and continue to work for 45ACP. It involves removing no more than 0.020" from the 'fitting pad' on the inside of the .45 LCI extractor (see photo below) allowing it to travel closer to the axis of the bore and make solid contact with the 10mm case. Some who have studied this .45 extractor modification believe it functions better than the option of installing a stock 10mm extractor. It is best to modify a spare extractor in case of a problem. As material is filed from the fitting pad, test for proper tension of the extractor against a cartridge. With the slide removed from the frame, insert an empty 10mm case or dummy round underneath the extractor claw from the bottom of the slide. There should be some measurable tension being applied by the extractor’s vertical engagement edge to the cartridge. A dummy round should remain suspended by the inward force of the extractor. KKM can be contacted for advice and instructions before attempting this modification at (775) 246-5444

As versatile as the g20 is the g21 is more so.

All my after market barrels for the g20 work
in my g21, even the 9mm, with that extractor
mod, the modded ext even works with the
45/460 Rowland too.

The g21 is the most versatile and powerful Glock.

 

The 10mm magnum was originally developed for the AMT Automag IV which was a large, single action semi-automatic handgun.

It was created by Harry Sanford, who also invented the original 44 Automag which used cut-down rimless 308 cases. The later Automags I, II, III, IV an V were a different design than the original Automag and more closely resembled a 1911 but with a slide mounted safety.

The original 44 automag used a rotary bolt lockup similar to an AR15.

AMT had a bad reputation for quality control. A friend of mine, a gunsmith in Southern California, once visited the AMT manufacturing facility and witnessed assembly line workers constantly adjusting the CNC settings on the machinery.

And because most of these workers were of Hispanic decent, my friend always referred to AMT as "Amateur Mexican Technology".

The Automag IV was the only semi-auto that was ever chambered for the 10mm magnum. The 10mm magnum is really only a viable cartridge for 10mm AUTO chambered revolvers that can be reamed out for 10mm Magnum and loaded to 41 magnum ballistics.

 

Yes, I have a S&W 610 that is reamed to 10mm magnum. That revolver can now shoot .40 S&W, 10mm, and 10mm magnum.

 

Yes, I have a S&W 610 that is reamed to 10mm magnum. That revolver can now shoot .40 S&W, 10mm, and 10mm magnum.

That is just about the perfect handgun.

You can shoot relatively inexpensive factory 40 S$W ammo for practice, and something like Federal 180 grain HST 40 S&W for a home defense load which is lower pressure and has less muzzle blast than 10 mm auto loads, and has less recoil an dis faster on follow-up shots.

Then for a woods and hunting load you can shoot full power 10mm magnum loads. And if you reload you can use many of the same projectiles for al 3 cases.

I have owned and reloaded for many 44 magnum and 44 special handguns over the years but I prefer the 41 magnum over the 44. with bullets up to 240 grains of weight, I consider the 41 the better cartridge. Only with the 300 grain projectiles does the 44 mag have any advantage and even then you really need a Ruger Redhawk or a super Blackhawk with a 10 1/2 inch barrel to harness the additional power.

For a factory woods load in the 10mm magnum Double tap hakes a 230 grain hardcast flatnose that develops 1250fps / 800 ft/lbs and a reloader can easily duplicate these ballistics. For hunting the 200 grain Hornady XTP would be the best choice and can be driven as high a 1600 fps and the same thing with a 200 grain FMJ.

 

The only downside is the extra cleaning required after shooting the .40 and 10mm. The bullets sheer off a little copper or lead on the shoulders of the reaming in the cylinder, making cleaning the cylinder a ***** to enable the magnum cartridge to go deep enough. I've take a few deer with the magnum. Longest shot was 75 yards. Of course, I've taken a couple with the 10mm auto, too. First deer I ever shot was with my Colt Delta Elite at 25 yards.
And yes, I do reload. can't afford to shoot my fun guns without it! (.300 Wthby magnum, .50 AE, .300 Win-Mag, .300 BLK, .30-30, 10mm magnum, .44 magnum)

Almost forgot to mention: I have an Automag V in .50 AE. There's a reason they never made many!! :laughing: