[Jester@249]

Your insults show your lack of understanding of the subject . Go name a “safe” holster if you are blaming the holster for these discharges .
And I seem to understand the problem more than you apparently.

ANY and ALL holsters that FULLY protect the trigger guard from allowing the trigger to be pulled fully to the rear. ANY holster made by AMYONE as described will be safe.

 

[Jester@249]

something like this?
View attachment 1235761

Now you are speaking his language!!

 

[walkinguf61]

ANY and ALL holsters that FULLY protect the trigger guard from allowing the trigger to be pulled fully to the rear. ANY holster made by AMYONE as described will be safe.

Name it. Name a security holster that you say is safe that meets that definitions because if you asked those manufacturers, they would say those holsters meet those standards.

 

[tomrkba]

Why are we still arguing over this?

 

[MaDef]

Why are we still arguing over this?

Cause some people ALWAYS have to be RIGHT.

 

[italianstallion]

This basically sums up what's happening.

 

[TexasPOff]

So the videos aren’t good enough for you from a gunsmith explaining it, or from discharges inside a holsters with no known obstructions? On video .
No proof I could show you will satisfy you. You guys are like the press with the Hunter Biden laptop . “No evidence “
Go take your P320, since I don’t own one, take it to a range , point it in a safe direction, pull the trigger to the exact point mentioned in the video , and wack the side of it a few times . It will go off just as any gun when the internal safeties are disengaged. But the trigger isn’t “all the way back “ when it goes off.
As far as the trigger again, what happened with the trigger when the non- “voluntary updated” guns were dropped at that specific angle. The trigger moved on its own , correct? The answer is yes, it did.

Did Sig deny there was a problem to the Dallas PD. Yes it did . It was testing by Dallas and their warning that got them to do the voluntary upgrade.

Are departments dropping the P320? The answer is yes. Is that a problem? Potentially for Sig.
Is it the Sig is more susceptible to a trigger pull by other than an intentional pull by the operator than other service guns? It appears so. Unlike Glock leg , this isn’t a finger in the trigger while holstering or pulling the trigger to disassemble the gun.
There is a problem with this gun. The only real debate is why. Some saying it could be the holsters but it has happened in more than one type of holster . It’s not just the safariland ALS.

Just as a point of reference, when several of our officers, me included received our VUP 320's back from sig and we did exactly what you described as pulling the trigger back slightly and hitting the back of the slides with rubber mallets. We also threw the pistols on the ground several times, drug them behind a mule, and dropped them off the 20 feet onto the ground from the roof of our range. We literally beat the crap out of the pistol, because we wanted to make damn sure they wouldn't go off when dropped. We banged around and generally abused them since we were going to start carrying them again on duty. We even broke one of the frames during our testing. To be fair, we did have a glock 17 there going to the tests as well, we knew someone at the PD would ask if a Glock could do it too. It also passed with out a discharge, not surprisingly.

You know what, not a single one of the 7 guns tested slipped a striker, or discharged a primed casing without pulling the trigger. Based on that, I have no issues whatsoever carrying my 320, and neither do any of the officers here carrying them. We have been carrying them since 2018, and not a single one of them has had an issue, well one had a little rust form on the fire control unit.

As far as I know from the firearms instructors as Texas DPS, they too have not had a single un commanded discharge with any of their 2500 plus 320's. So again, until someone can prove without a doubt, and replicate the un commanded discharge on more than one correctly functioning 320, I'm simply not going to believe the pistol is flawed.

On another note, I qualified several officers from other agencies yesterday during the annual qual, and if I took some videos of them, it would be painfully clear, why some officers seems to have had ND with the 320's. I spent the entire day correcting poor handling habits and safety violations, and virtually no time actually being able to teach of train.




TXPO

 

[walkinguf61]

Just as a point of reference, when several of our officers, me included received our VUP 320's back from sig and we did exactly what you described as pulling the trigger back slightly and hitting the back of the slides with rubber mallets. We also threw the pistols on the ground several times, drug them behind a mule, and dropped them off the 20 feet onto the ground from the roof of our range. We literally beat the crap out of the pistol, because we wanted to make damn sure they wouldn't go off when dropped. We banged around and generally abused them since we were going to start carrying them again on duty. We even broke one of the frames during our testing. To be fair, we did have a glock 17 there going to the tests as well, we knew someone at the PD would ask if a Glock could do it too. It also passed with out a discharge, not surprisingly.

You know what, not a single one of the 7 guns tested slipped a striker, or discharged a primed casing without pulling the trigger. Based on that, I have no issues whatsoever carrying my 320, and neither do any of the officers here carrying them. We have been carrying them since 2018, and not a single one of them has had an issue, well one had a little rust form on the fire control unit.

As far as I know from the firearms instructors as Texas DPS, they too have not had a single un commanded discharge with any of their 2500 plus 320's. So again, until someone can prove without a doubt, and replicate the un commanded discharge on more than one correctly functioning 320, I'm simply not going to believe the pistol is flawed.

On another note, I qualified several officers from other agencies yesterday during the annual qual, and if I took some videos of them, it would be painfully clear, why some officers seems to have had ND with the 320's. I spent the entire day correcting poor handling habits and safety violations, and virtually no time actually being able to teach of train.




TXPO

See, this is what I want to hear . If you did it , then great . Finally an experiment with real info instead of the P320 can’t be wrong ( again) bs .
This is a valid argument.
And I would argue that like lock picking , the “pins” have to be precisely lined up for the rake or swindle tension to work ( on the case of the gun- the whack to side ).
It can be done on almost any striker firearm .

And that is just a theory as to a possible cause.

As far as training , we can agree on that. It can be scary even at police ranges what people do.

But the discharges we are talking about are while the firearm is in the holster for quite sometime without a known obstruction or string pull.
Huge difference.
And the occurrences have happened with different types of holsters, no identified obstacles in the trigger well, some on video , some witnessed by range officers , etc.

And of course, it’s not just police officers filing lawsuits on this. And yes, the majority are operator error but the gun has an issue . Is it more susceptible to a friction pull discharge than other firearms. You can even add the phase “if mishandled “ than other guns . So ask yourself “is the P320 more susceptible to an untended discharge by a friction pull than other guns if mishandled “?

 

[walkinguf61]

Just as a point of reference, when several of our officers, me included received our VUP 320's back from sig and we did exactly what you described as pulling the trigger back slightly and hitting the back of the slides with rubber mallets. We also threw the pistols on the ground several times, drug them behind a mule, and dropped them off the 20 feet onto the ground from the roof of our range. We literally beat the crap out of the pistol, because we wanted to make damn sure they wouldn't go off when dropped. We banged around and generally abused them since we were going to start carrying them again on duty. We even broke one of the frames during our testing. To be fair, we did have a glock 17 there going to the tests as well, we knew someone at the PD would ask if a Glock could do it too. It also passed with out a discharge, not surprisingly.

You know what, not a single one of the 7 guns tested slipped a striker, or discharged a primed casing without pulling the trigger. Based on that, I have no issues whatsoever carrying my 320, and neither do any of the officers here carrying them. We have been carrying them since 2018, and not a single one of them has had an issue, well one had a little rust form on the fire control unit.

As far as I know from the firearms instructors as Texas DPS, they too have not had a single un commanded discharge with any of their 2500 plus 320's. So again, until someone can prove without a doubt, and replicate the un commanded discharge on more than one correctly functioning 320, I'm simply not going to believe the pistol is flawed.

On another note, I qualified several officers from other agencies yesterday during the annual qual, and if I took some videos of them, it would be painfully clear, why some officers seems to have had ND with the 320's. I spent the entire day correcting poor handling habits and safety violations, and virtually no time actually being able to teach of train.




TXPO

By the way you reminded me of an incident that occurred to an officer I knew about 25 years ago. His Glock was untouched and in a holster when it went off .
He rode motorcycles back then . He put his Glock ( in a good leather pancake holster with a thumb break ) in the side bags on his motorcycle. As he was riding , boom. It went off and put a bullet in his leg. They determined that the heat and vibrations set off the primer . So it is possible in almost any gun.
I blocked this one I guess because when he came back to work a few weeks later, he got into a bad motorcycle crash and got brain damage. Gary Busey was ahead of him on the recovery scale type damage .

 

[Cranky old cop]

See, this is what I want to hear . If you did it , then great . Finally an experiment with real info instead of the P320 can’t be wrong ( again) bs .
This is a valid argument.
And I would argue that like lock picking , the “pins” have to be precisely lined up for the rake or swindle tension to work ( on the case of the gun- the whack to side ).
It can be done on almost any striker firearm .

And that is just a theory as to a possible cause.

As far as training , we can agree on that. It can be scary even at police ranges what people do.

But the discharges we are talking about are while the firearm is in the holster for quite sometime without a known obstruction or string pull.
Huge difference.
And the occurrences have happened with different types of holsters, no identified obstacles in the trigger well, some on video , some witnessed by range officers , etc.

And of course, it’s not just police officers filing lawsuits on this. And yes, the majority are operator error but the gun has an issue . Is it more susceptible to a friction pull discharge than other firearms. You can even add the phase “if mishandled “ than other guns . So ask yourself “is the P320 more susceptible to an untended discharge by a friction pull than other guns if mishandled “?

You ever figure out the mystery discharge problem with Remington 700‘s ?

 

[Cranky old cop]

By the way you reminded me of an incident that occurred to an officer I knew about 25 years ago. His Glock was untouched and in a holster when it went off .
He rode motorcycles back then . He put his Glock ( in a good leather pancake holster with a thumb break ) in the side bags on his motorcycle. As he was riding , boom. It went off and put a bullet in his leg. They determined that the heat and vibrations set off the primer . So it is possible in almost any gun.
I blocked this one I guess because when he came back to work a few weeks later, he got into a bad motorcycle crash and got brain damage. Gary Busey was ahead of him on the recovery scale type damage .

What temperature would it take to detonate a seated primer ?

 

[tonysilver]

In line with the conversation in this thread. I saw this video on the sig sauer website. Under p320 section.

Seems the video makes it clear, trigger has to be pulled.

 

[walkinguf61]

What temperature would it take to detonate a seated primer ?

I don’t know. It was determined to be the heat and vibration.

 

[TexasPOff]

Just for a point of reference, its not scientific, but I recreated the same test we did when we received all our 320 back from the VUP.

<a href=" "><img src=" " title="source: imgur.com" /></a>






TXPO

 

[Cranky old cop]

I don’t know. It was determined to be the heat and vibration.

I just wonder because that would make a dangerous situation with all ammunition. I am thinking that this is not a good example of “ design fault “. In all honesty is sounds like they just came up something , anything because it is only a hairs breath away from blaming a small elf living in the saddle bag 🤔

 

[walkinguf61]

I just wonder because that would make a dangerous situation with all ammunition. I am thinking that this is not a good example of “ design fault “. In all honesty is sounds like they just came up something , anything because it is only a hairs breath away from blaming a small elf living in the saddle bag 🤔

Not at all. He was shot while riding the bike on a highway . There is a hole in the saddlebag in line with hole in his leg. It was in public. I don’t know the condition of the holster but easy to prove if fired within the holster . Fully enclosed pancake holster with thumb break snapped closed . A obstruction or friction pull was fully investigated and ruled out.
Is it a design flaw? No because it’s not meant to be carried that way unlike what is happening with the P320.

 

[Cranky old cop]

Not at all. He was shot while riding the bike on a highway . There is a hole in the saddlebag in line with hole in his leg. It was in public. I don’t know the condition of the holster but easy to prove if fired within the holster . Fully enclosed pancake holster with thumb break snapped closed . A obstruction or friction pull was fully investigated and ruled out.
Is it a design flaw? No because it’s not meant to be carried that way unlike what is happening with the P320.

Well it would have had to be hundreds of degrees in that Saddlebag bag. So I think the “ conclusion “ is shady

 

[walkinguf61]

Well it would have had to be hundreds of degrees in that Saddlebag bag. So I think the “ conclusion “ is shady

That’s their conclusion and I am positive they contacted Glock about it . It’s the heat AND vibration.

 

[MaDef]

What temperature would it take to detonate a seated primer ?

About 400 degrees F.

 

[Cranky old cop]

That’s their conclusion and I am positive they contacted Glock about it . It’s the heat AND vibration.

i dont buy it , a pistol in a holster in a saddle bag …….at 400 degrees and road vibration 😙
Was the shot fired noticed after the accident? If that’s the case maybe the crash itself created a situation that depressed the trigger causing the discharge.
And besides a Glock isn’t cocked, pulling the trigger cocks and releases the striker