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Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Rinconjoe, Mar 1, 2012.
what are the benefits of each powder?
be for 40 S&W 180 gr FM J .
Think of WST as equivalent of 231 and Titegroup.
Think of WSF as similar to AA#7 and Blue Dot.
WST is a fast burning powder for REDUCED loads. WSF is a slow burning powder for high-power factor, maximum loads.
Better description for WSF would be similar to AA #5 and HS6 burn rate and application.
Sort of. First, blasphemy saying WST is like TG, nothing is like TG, but I digress. Look at a burn rate chart & reloading manual. That pretty much tells you what certain powders do. WST is a fast burner, just under W231. High loft, celan burning, suitable for any std vel load in low pressure rounds like the 45acp & light-med loads in high pressure rounds like the 9mm & 40.
WSF is smack in the middle of what I call medium burners. In fact, it is so close to Unique you can almost use Unique data for it if you can't find WSF data. So it's a better choice for medium-full power loads in all the service calibers & light to medium loads in magnums & high pressure stuff like the 357sig & 10mm. Not anywhere close to as slow as BD.
OK hears wear I stir the pot so of to say , I am new to reloading.
I have shot approx 1500 rounds of 40 S&W 180 gr bullet double plated Berry s at 4.1Gr of WST .
I ended up with wst because they didn't initially have WSF ,
seems to shoot just fine to me would you change now that the shop has both
I mainly for shooting targets and being told by several of the local competition shooter I need to join them, . I have been working with them and they keep hounding me so next month going to try local shoot .
I do shoot good but not sure about this timed stuff anyway another conversation .
i understand WST fast burning powder and has high pressures why I am at low end ,
so would you stick with WST or go to another powder?
In a .40 S&W:
WST - Practice loads in the 750-850fps area. You can run hotter and break 900fps or so but...there's no free lunch. Pressures run high and accuracy goes to hell. I run 3.8grs. w/180gr. Berrys and if there's a better practice/gamer load for the .40 I've yet to see it.
WSF - The opposite of WST. Use this to run the .40 at standard specs i.e. 180gr. to 975fps, or hotter. You can use WSF for lighter practice loadings... but why? This powder performs best when run to full strength. Anything less is a waste of good fuel and you'll notice it when it doesn't burn completely and leaves your gun dirtier then normal.
To surmise - Fun, light .40 loads, WST. Full power ammo, WSF.
^^THIS^^ WSF is my fav for the 40, but I run upper midragne to full power loads. Unique is right there too, WSF just meters better.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the lack of load data for WST. I just got off the phone with a rep from Hodgedon/Winchester. I called the reloading center to find out why there is such a lack of pistol load data for WST powder, particularly in 9mm. I spoke to Ron and his answer was that WST is not advertised as a pistol powder, but rather a shotgun powder. He also said when there is no published data for a certain powder, it usually indicates that the rise in pressure in a certain powder/cartridge combination can be unpredictable due to temperatures and other factors, and therefore should not be used. As I started to say ..." yeah but......." he cut me off and said: "there is no but about it, pistols, unlike rifles do not give you pressure warning signs. The warning sign is you get hit with pieces of your gun".
Considering I have used WST in my 9mm loads, and like it a good deal, I found his answer to be very unsettling.
I was looking for a load using WST and 147gr. lead bullets in 9mm, and he strongly advised me against it because " WST was too fast for a heavy bullet! Yet, they list 147 gr. loads with 700X and tightgroup which are faster powders.
I do use WSF, and I think it is more versatile than WST. So, particularly in 40 with 180 gr. bullets, I'd stick with WSF.
WST is the faster burning powder - consider it a clean burning Bullseye. I use WST for mild loads in ny S&W646 at ca 725 to 750 fps. For loads approaching full power WSF is an excellent choice. Both powders meter with exceptional uniformity in my Dillon 550.
Yet there is data for 230 gr .45 ACP. Is that not a heavy bullet?
i can tell you it works great in 40 S&W from range 4.0 -4.1 gr with 180 gr plated bullets
was thinking of changing but really seems no reason it seems to be a fast clean burning powder yet does have high pressure.
bucky, you got the wrong dude @ Hodgdon. Have him post here, love to debate his thoughts. I am doubting he is anything but an exp engineer. Yes, lack of data is one reason I don't recommend ot for 9mm or 40, but saying one can't work up data using WST or any other pwoder for that matter, tells me the guy knows little about reloading. I wonder what he would say about loading off the books for wildcat rounds??
I have to agree with Fred.... WST is a great powder for 9mm.
The only powder I use for my pet load 135g Bear Creek molys meters well, burns clean, super accurate (2 inch off hand at 50 yards, with a Spartan 9mm) very, very consistent.
My load BC 135g RN with 4.0g WST at 1.150 OAL with CCI SPP's runs 1000 Fps on my chrono through my Spartan 9mm.
3 random loads from my belt at WA State IDPA Championship last year ran 1020, 1020, 1019 Fps (chrono was noted as being 20 + Fps generous, by the official chronograph operator) I had the best SD of the day.
I'm switching back Production and the Glock 34 this year with a LWD barrel, running down to a 1.125 OAL at 4.0.... I'll post chrono results after the weekend.
I have not found a single accurate load with WST. It may be good enough for action pistol, but it sure doesn't meet my accuracy requirements.
WSF has shown real promise in 9x19 and .38 Super for accuracy.
This isn't the first time I have read about someone calling Hodgdon, and getting that same answer. I don't really understand why they say that, especially since so many guys use it now.
I tried a PD 124gr JHP over 4.8gr WST @ 1.125, and I didn't really care for it. I liked the feel of 5.1gr WSF better, and I scored better in the stages I shot with it . Both loads were fired through my GEN 4 G17.
Powder Burn Rate Chart - Hodgdon
What is your definition of accuracy? To say it is not without a scale is rather worthless for comparison. Distance? Gun? Rested or freestyle?
Do you really expect them to deviate from the "conventional wisdom" and open themselves to liability?
No, but if this many people are using it successfully in 9mm, along with just about every other semi-auto cartridge, I'd get off my ass and start testing (or retesting). Then I would publish the reasons why it's such a bad idea, or that I was wrong. WST has been around for a while, so this can't be a new question. Why not have a more substantive answer than "sometimes pressure spikes... In certain cases... Shotgun powder... But it works fine for everything but 9mm... Blah blah blah..."?
Before Hdgdon bought Winchester powderline, Win publsihed data in their free manuals. So then it was fine & now it sucks? Sorry, not buying it. I've been succesfully loadign WST ever since it was 452AA. It shoots better in some cailbers @ certain pressure/vel levels w/ certain bullet types, but that is true for all pwoders IME. In 45acp , I have found none more accurate across all the bullet wts & styles, that says quite a lot for a powders ability.