Why the beatdown?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by JimK, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. JimK

    JimK

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    Just wondering why the robber beats on the the victim who is co-operating . You see it all the time in news where a guy holds up an individual or business and the people hand over the money and the robber still beats on them . Is it because they are the lowest life-form and enjoy inflicting pain on someone they don`t even know? Or is there another reason I`m not aware of ?
     
  2. ChuteTheMall

    ChuteTheMall Wallbuilder and Weapon Bearer

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  3. Indy_Guy_77

    Indy_Guy_77 Thread Killer

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    And yet... And yet people STILL advocate "just go along with it and give them what they want."

    It's about instilling fear and establishing dominance. Exhibiting power and control.

    -J-
     
  4. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Drugs, idiots, adrenalin, power hungry, gets em excited, crazy.

    One or some of the above, or other things I am too dense to think of.

    'Drew
     
  5. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

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    The reason you see it on the news is that it is unusual and attention-getting, thus it makes it to the news. Most of the time the robber does not beat on the victim who is co-operating. But that doesn't make nearly as good a news story.
     
  6. mymini40

    mymini40

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    or maybe, just maybe, the victim doesnt how to protect himself??? We just cant blame the attacker all the time when the "victim" just curls into a fetal position and lets his attacker do all the punching/kicking. YOU MUST FIGHT BACK! If the attacker is armed, then use tactics to get the upperhand. Be a warrior not a sheep.
     
  7. racer88

    racer88 NRA & SAF mbr

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    It feeds one our human basic needs: Significance. It's on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It would fit into "respect by others." We all need significance in our lives. Most of us achieve that in good ways: our careers, our families, our creations, etc.

    But, one easy way to achieve significance VERY QUICKLY is to hold a gun to someone's head and demand action or material goods. Another way to assert significance is by physically overpowering someone else. To the victim, the assailant is VERY SIGNIFICANT at that moment.

    So, just getting the guy's watch or wallet does not really satisfy the need for significance. That just satisfies the lower level (on Maslow's hierarchy) of "safety / property." People need THINGS to survive. Things can include a source of income so they can achieve the lowest human need which is physiological sustenance (food / shelter).

    Significance is higher up on the scale. Beating someone makes you instantly very significant.

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! ;)
     
  8. hoffy

    hoffy

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    Like racer 88 said, my suspicion is these perpetrators have no respect for themselves , much less to anybody else, and therefore are more likely to be more anti social. One who would commit such crimes most likely would have at least one, and most likely multiple diagnosable mental disorders, not that that is an excuse. If you really look at the wretched conditions some children are brought up in it is a wonder there isn't more of this, this goes along with whoever said it is sensational and gets media attention(gots to sell them commercials) . I have seen this in large cities(more likely IMO) and rural areas as well. Also there are there are the random psychotics running around too, why I like the idea of rational people carrying guns.

    I worked at a gun shop in a large city back in the '80s-'90s and robbery was always a worry(we were prepared) and the ones who worried me the most were young teenagers who hung with crack gangsters(the gangsters knew we would not hesitate to shoot first) but these kids respected little or nothing, including our sign saying 18 or over. One time 3 came in and one had his hands in pockets and I was within inches of a loaded gun and I am pretty sure he knew it from my demeanor if he twitched he was going to get shot, they left, slowly, and never came back. One of the older gangster guys later told me I scared one of them pretty bad, or something like that. Things sure have changed, I knew there were straw man purchases were going on(way before brady bill but there was a city required card to possess a handgun)and called local LEOs who told me to call ATF, then ATF, rebuffed me rudely telling me I was not LEO, to which I replied that is why I called him, I think he hung up on me. Now I would probably be jailed. Though we had a sign saying we reserved the right to refuse any purchase, due to civil rights concerns implanted by the owner lawyer(not a very good lawyer at that) we were told to call LEOs if any questions came up. Arrrrgh
     
  9. mgunner9

    mgunner9

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    Many robberies are have a parrellel to rape.... they're not about money, they're really about power. A group that robs a low value target (individual for his wallet, store for a few hundred dollars and some beer) is really making a statement about "who's the boss" and the beatdown is part of setting the heirarchy.

    Most criminals see us as barriers to getting what they want and of no greater significance than a bug. Your mistake is thinking that they're like you and rational.
     
  10. fwm

    fwm

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    In KC MO a few years back a friend of mine was just aimed at and killed in a gas station after he complied with the armed robber. Video showed he did nothing to provoke the killing. The killer is still at large.
     
  11. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota

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    indeed.

    and for those who think you should fight every robber every time, i wonder if you have ever done any force-on-force training?

    in my experience with FoF training, i have found that there are many robbery scenarios where the best chance of surviving unharmed is to cooperate and hope the robber just really does want your wallet.

    it's not that i want to cooperate, but robbers often work in teams, they often are smart enough to stay out of arm's reach, etc. etc. there are many scenarios where fighting is almost certain to get you seriously injured or killed.

    and, while i grasped that conceptually prior to doing a lot of FoF training, it did not really "get it" until experiencing it in FoF.

    this is not to say you cannot prevail against an attacker, though, either. i have also successfully disarmed my share of pretend robbers in FoF...and a knife wielding attacker in real life. but i have also found that automatically starting to fight with a robber is often a good way to turn a robbery into a murder--of me. the best course of action is very dependent upon the specific circumstances of each unique situation.

    (and, of course, if you do decide to give up your wallet, you must remain prepared to fight if that doesn't make him go away. and, imho, do not ever let him move you to another location--including a back room--do not give up your gun, etc. but, if he just points a gun at you or displays a knife or bat and says "give me your wallet", i personally recommend tossing your wallet on the ground somewhere near him and away from you--and then, as he picks it up, running to cover if available.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  12. G-30Jet

    G-30Jet

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    Yes you are exactly right!
     
  13. cowboywannabe

    cowboywannabe you savvy?

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    why the beat down? because the victim allows it.
     
  14. fwm

    fwm

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    Who said anything about fighting? This is a gun forum. I boxed and wrestled in high school and learned karate out of school. That's why I carry a forty, so I don't have to go hand to hand to defend myself.

    Had a gun pulled on me twice in my life. Found it doesn't scare me, it P$$$$ ME OFF in a real bad way. Both times, I ended up with a nice gun.
     
  15. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota

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    fighting with a gun is fighting. disarming the guy is fighting. i'm not talking about bar fight fighting...i am talking about fighting for your life fighting--which may not involve any physical contact at all (shooting at each other is fighting).

    cool. when i had a knife pulled on me, i had a similar reaction. didn't get scared at all...sort of got angry...but mostly just voice in my head saying "No"...i actually even unintentionally said "No. I'll take that." out loud while disarming him.

    as i said, it certainly is possible to disarm the robber. if the guy who pulled the gun knew what he was doing, though, (or just accidentally never got within arm's reach) it might have turned out differently (just as if the guy who pulled a knife on me actually knew how to use it, i may well not be here typing this today).
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  16. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

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    Actually very few robberies have anything to do with power other than the need to display that one has the power to accomplish the goal of the robbery. Relatively few robbers want to use any force, they are there for the money or other valuables.
     
  17. krush777

    krush777

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    Excellent point - Dave!
     
  18. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota

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    exactly. and turning such a robbery into something more than a robbery is probably not in the victim's best interests from a "wake up unharmed in your own bed the next morning" point of view.
     
  19. mitchshrader

    mitchshrader Deceased

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    NYC Drew had the right of it. Some robbers are on a power trip, adrenalin, and others are scared worse than the victim.. drugs emphasize the first and blur the second.

    So many robbers are high on speed, crack, opiates, or other major reality shifting drugs, and others are DEPRIVED of those drugs and borderline functional. Criminals are as a bunch variably disaffected, but darn few of 'em are well balanced. Even if they're sane, situational stress has impinged on their reason.

    Which is why I say IF AT ALL FEASIBLE, in a direct criminal assault use maximum legal force in self defense. If you get that half second jump, don't waste it.

    At any point possible.
     
  20. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota

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    one other point about responding to robbers...

    many people seem to be of the philosophy "i won't fight him, i carry a gun, so i'll just shoot him"...

    it doesn't really work out that way, though.

    the guy already has a weapon in his hand. he is likely already pretty close to you (if you noticed him before he was close, he would likely have moved onto a different potential victim).

    if your first reaction is simply to try to draw and shoot, you may well not get it done in time.

    the first line of defense against a close-quarters attack is probably going to have to be open handed. you need to, at a minimum, deflect the attack to create space and time to get your gun into the fight (or just run away).

    doing force-on-force training (with airsoft or simunitions, training knives, etc.) really opens one's eyes and allows one to formulate and test various strategies and tactics. i cannot recommend it enough.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010