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Why is it so hard to admit Atheism is a Religion?

  1. I've been having a discussion with a fellow about his religion. He is an atheist, or at least he claims to be.

    https://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16262611&posted=1#post16262611

    He believes that God does not exist, however, he acknowledges that it is impossible for him to prove this belief.

    So, when it is pointed out that he has "Faith" that he is right, and that his view of the universe is right. As devout as any other religious fellow that I've run across.


    Just to make sure I am being clear about my own beliefs, I am unsure, I'm an agnostic. I see evidence in nature and in man that both makes me believe that there may be a God, and there may not be one, or at least it may be difficult to know which one is the right one.
     
  2. Is being bald a hair color?

    Is not collecting stamps a hobby?
     
  3. If you really want understanding of this, please answer this question:

    Do you believe in the existence of Vishnu?

    When you answer, please carefully note that I asked if you *believe* - not whether it can be known or not known, but whether or not you *believe* it is true that Vishnu exists.
     
  4. And what does either of those have to do with the fundamental nature of the universe?
     
  5. To answer, I have my doubts. But I do not know for sure. I believe there is evidence that supports creation, and evidence that supports evolution. It's possible that Vishnu exists.


    Is it so hard to admit?
     

  6. Nothing, but they're perfect analogies to demonstrate the mistake in your thought process here.
     
  7. If you want to see my answer to your post, lets move this to the GT Religious Issues Forum.

    See ya there. https://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322


    The whole "pixies" metaphor minimizes the gravity of the question at hand, and is likely something you've used before to mock the question.

    Does God exist or not? You said in the other thread that you "believe" there is no god, but you have no proof.

    Like it or not, that is faith.
     
  8. I think what you are trying to describe is whether the approach to atheism is active or passive.


    Whether passive or active, if you do believe there is a deity, you do. If you don't, you don't.

    Agnosticism ranges from whether it is impossible to know, or whether the individual simply does not know.

    I think it is possible to know, only if there is a God. I assume that we would all find out in the afterlife. If there isn't, I doubt we would be aware enough to realize it after we are dead.
     
  9. I think they are minimization of the issue.


    I'll go first. I don't know if there are any deities.


    Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god?
     
  10. I find it pretty funny that you responded, in this thread, to the post from the other thread - when I had already asked a question in this thread, and was already here to see it (edited: and, in fact, you had already responded to it)

    https://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16262676&postcount=3

    I selected Vishnu in this case because an actual god that people really, really believe in ought to hold sufficient 'gravitas' that you might focus on the parallels rather than saying it doesn't matter.

    So - Do you believe that Vishnu exists? Not 'do you doubt', not 'do you know or not know', but can you honestly accept the premise that Vishnu is real?

    Edit: Or, in other words, would you give the answer 'Yes' to the question 'Does CavalryDoc believe Vishnu actually exists'?
     
  11. Do you understand the difference between the terms "atheist" and "agnostic"?

    Again: http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm


    "First learn, then form opinions"
     
  12. Void*

    Would you please answer Doc's question of "Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god"?

    Thanks
     
  13. I can honestly accept the possibility that vishnu exists. But I believe that I do not know whether he does or does not exist.

    Do you know? Do you just know it in your heart, or can you prove it one way or the other?
     
  14. That's pretty funny. dismissive condescension. It's not working, but it is funny.

    Maybe you could try learning the actual definition of the terms you are using.

    The bold section fits closest. It may be knowable, but I personally do not have enough proof one way or the other to state conclusively that God, or a God does or does not exist.

    So, now that we've gotten past your misconception.


    Are you personally sure that there is or is not a god?


    See, the problem is I am not sure. If you are sure, how? What convinced you?
     
  15. Because its not a religion.

    I can't prove if there is a real easter bunny but I don't give it a enough chance to consider it, I feel the same way about a god.

    Why do I have to prove a god religious people CLAIM is real I am sure there is no god I have seen no reason to believe in one. I do not have faith there is no god just like I don't have faith there is no tooth fairy. I put theme in the same category. Does that make my no faith in the easter bunny and the tooth fairy a religion? No that would be silly.

    Why do people fill the need to label something that does not want to be a religion or claims to be a religion or a religion? Especially on glock talk to want to call atheism a religion when it claims not to be and islam not a religion when it has been for a long time.
     
  16. This is, again, not an answer to the question asked. I am not asking if you accept it as possible. I am not asking you if you believe you know. I am not asking about what you know - I am asking about what you believe, I am asking whether or not you accept the proposition "Vishnu exists" as something you believe.

    Please, just honestly answer the question - Do you believe that Vishnu exists?

    Or, to put it a slightly different way, do you have faith that Vishnu exists?
     
  17. It is a belief system that seeks to explain the basic nature of the universe.

    It IS a religion. It's OK to admit it if you are one of the faithful. All of us here believe in the right of the individual to practice the religion of his choice.


    Denial that Atheism requires faith without proof, of the real situation of affairs in nature, and of the supernatural, doesn't help. It's just a denial of the truth.


    Either you have faith that you are correct, or you don't.

    If you don't, maybe you're really an agnostic?
     
  18. You asked a question, and I answered it honestly. Just because you don't like the answer does not make it any less honest.

    You have already illustrated that you are a victim of digital thinking......

    Open your mind, and allow yourself the ability to believe that some people are honestly not so arrogant as to believe that they have all the answers.....

    I really don't know if Vishnu exists or not. And if you will actually admit the truth, neither do you.
     
  19. You haven't answered the question, at all, either honestly or dishonestly.

    You have answered the question 'Do you believe you know whether or not Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'No'. (Edit: More specifically, you stated "I believe that I do not know whether he does or does not exist." - which is 'Yes' to the question 'Do you believe that you do not know', which is answering 'No' to the question 'Do you believe that you know').

    You have answered the question 'Is it possible that Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'Yes'. (Edit: You stated that you accept it as possible)

    You have answered the question 'Do you know Vishnu exists' with what appears to be a 'No'. (Edit: If you don't believe you know, then you hold the position that you don't know)

    But you have not answered the question 'Do you believe Vishnu exists', and telling yourself that it's just that I don't like the answer doesn't change that.

    Since an actual answer to that question (coming from you, rather than me inferring a likely answer based on what you have actually answered) is critical to the point, I can't really explain further without you actually answering it.

    Edit: So I can only really ask the same question again, in yet another different way:
    Do you accept the proposition that Vishnu exists?
     
  20. Its interesting that you jump on the broad, modern definition of agnostic while skipping the definition thats more truthful to the actual philosophical position. Doesn't fit your agenda, I suppose. :dunno:

    (A)theism = referring to belief or non-belief in god(s)
    (A)gnosticism = referring to knowledge of god(s)

    As has been stated, they're not mutually exclusive positions. Most "atheists" also fall into the agnostic category as well, i.e. "I don't believe in any gods but I don't claim to know they don't exist either."



    Great, you've established that you don't claim to know whether or not a god exists, now do you believe in one anyways? If you do, you're an Agnostic Theist and if not, an Agnostic Atheist.

    See how that works now?
     


  21. Digital thinking may be terminal in this one.......


    Life is not on or off, black or white.....

    Life is not digital, it's analog.

    Life is best described as shades of gray, in infinite directions.


    You are asking if Vishnu exists or not, and I have answered that I am uncertain.

    I asked you if you believe Vishnu exists, and you haven't answered. Do you know? Do you just know it in your heart, or can you prove it one way or the other?

    But you edited the question out of your posts, because answering it honestly will further evidence your faith in your religion.

    Evidently, Atheists aren't as sure as I thought they were, or at least you aren't.


    I am answering your questions, even if you don't like the answers. You asked what you wished was a "Yes or NO" question, and forgot to consider that the answer "Maybe" is just as valid as the other two.

    You are not answering mine though. So, the hypocrisy is evident. Try to stop that if you can.
     
  22. You profess to know, without proof. I am humble enough to admit that I don't know.

    Who is being more honest?


    I believe that I don't know. I'm not so arrogant that I believe that I have to know everything. I know quite a lot, but in my 42 years, I have a wealth of experiences, that lead me to be unsure.


    You seem awful sure though. How did you arrive there?
     
  23. How many people that do not believe in GOD and believe we all came from pond scum or the Big Bang theory can believe that a tornado blowing through a junk yard can assemble a flyable working Boeing 747 from the junk in the yard.

    There is an order to the Universe and everything made in it. GOD made it.
     
  24. I applaud you for having the conviction to admit your faith.

    The atheists are still ignorant of their own, or at leas the won't admit it.




    It's odd, that the religion that is the least tolerant of others, that seeks to suppress the right of others to believe, or even not believe are those that claim to have no religion, while denying their own.
     
  25. That depends entirely on the domain of the question being asked. For instance, the answer to the question "What is the range of possible temperatures?" is *not* a continuous variable in both directions. It has a well known floor.

    The answer to the question "Are you wearing shoes?" is, in fact, binary.

    And so is the answer to the question "Do you accept the proposition x is true?".

    No, I am not asking if Vishnu exists.
    I am asking if you *believe* that Vishnu exists.
    You responded by answering a different question than the one asked.

    No, I do not. See how easy that is?

    Nope.

    It can't be proven one way or the other.

    Answering "Maybe" is not answering "Yes" - which is, I think, the whole reason you're answering *other* questions, rather than the one I actually asked.

    To get right down to it, if you cannot say "Yes" to the question "Do you believe Vishnu exists", (or, equivalently, "Do you accept the proposition that Vishnu exists?"), then you don't believe Vishnu exists. You might be uncertain, you might not be able to prove it, you might not be able to know - but all of that is irrelevant, you don't believe if you can't say yes to the question "Do you believe?"

    "knowledge" and "belief" are quite well defined terms in this respect, they are individually true dichotomies, and they are not mutually exclusive.
     
  26. Cav, could you lay out your evidence for a deity?
     
  27. You are starting to sound like an agnostic....


    You can't stand someone admitting that they don't know. It's a matter of arrogance and being honest with yourself. I am not so arrogant that I believe I know the truth about everything, and I am humble enough to admit that to myself.



    So, how do you KNOW Vishnu does not exist. An honest person would answer that they do not...... Unless you are about to surprise the heck out of me with some unprecedented revelation.
     
  28. Yet, you are so arrogant as to tell people that they profess to know, when they are *continually* telling you that they do not.

    (Apologies, mikeflys, if you're actually a strong/gnostic atheist, but from what I've read, I think the assumption that you're not is fairly safe).
     
  29. Please quote where I've said that I know that Vishnu does not exist.

    Perhaps you might want to review the post in which I answered your question, as I quite specifically remember answering "Nope" to the question "Do you know?".

    See what I mean about my stating I don't claim to know, and you coming back and claiming that I have?

    I don't know.
    I do not have faith that Vishnu is real.
    Just like, I suspect, you don't have faith that Vishnu is real.

    Which is the entire point, because my lack of faith that Vishnu is real is not the same thing as an active faith that Vishnu *isn't* real.
     
  30. You're pissing into the wind. ;)
     
  31. Probably - but there's always the hope that someone else will come across it, read it, think about it, and get the point.
     
  32. Life is simply too complex to have happened without a design. Several organs and even simple structures require too many things to be in just the right place in order to function. A simple flagella requires several atoms to be arranged into molecules, those molecules into compounds, those compounds to be arranged in symmetrical structures with the remainder being suddenly apparent.

    [​IMG]

    Such a simple thing, is yet, so complex. Fill a jar with Blue, red, yellow and gray marbles. Shake them up. Stop when you see the pattern above. Now continue, until the jar is arranged in that pattern from top to bottom.

    There are several intermediate steps that would make this very simple structure inoperative. This does not even begin to broach the complexity of an organism being able to selectively use this structure to get itself toward food, or away from danger.


    On the other hand, there are several religions, most exclude the others, so which one is right? Which one really knows, or do any of them?



    I'm only human. All I know for sure, is that several people in this thread aren't able to evaluate their belief system objectively.
     
  33. What faith? I am atheist. That does not require faith. I do not claim to have all the answers I just claim that the god answer is lacking any evidence for me to consider it.

    My atheism does not claim to know or seek to know the basic nature of the universe, that what science does.
     
  34. You starting to sound less agnostic.
     
  35. Maybe coming at it the other way ...


    Cavalry Doc, do you admit that there are people who would say they cannot prove that God exists, but that believe that God exists?

    Have you seen the argument that God cannot allow himself to be provable because then it would not take faith to believe?
     
  36. He claimed agnosticism in the other thread because I made a statement about him believing.

    I was making a probabilistic assessment of his belief based on the known belief of many other people I have had similar conversations with.

    He claimed agnosticism, I claimed 'my bad'. We'll see how that works out in the end.
     
  37. But do you know that there is no god, or are you unsure?
     
  38. Just willing to consider both sides of the issue. given billions and billions of years, anything is possible.

    Given that there are many different religions, and some older ones than are currently popular, which one is right?



    It's an open mind thing. :wavey:
     
  39. Any number of functional evolutionary pathways for flagella have been proposed and detailed since Behe first made this argument. Here's one.
     
  40. I have seen no prof of a god so I will say there is no god.
     
  41. Which god?
     
  42. The forum has a search feature. Go ahead and use it. :wavey: You'll see.

    You're barking up the wrong tree here. The last 8 or more times I was in a church, it was to vote.


    Maybe you have never encountered a true agnostic. I have encountered many different people of many different religions. Each individual was unique in their beliefs.
     
  43. But how do you know for sure? Are you sure?

    If you are sure, how are you sure?
     
  44. Because I never seen one or been shown evidence that proved one same as voids magic pixels. You had no problem being sure about that one.
     
  45. That's not a valid answer to the true atheists here.

    See the OP.



    It's a rough crowd for an agnostic too. :wavey:
     
  46. pixies, man, pixies.

    Millions of demo coders all over the planet have proved over and over again that magic pixels exist. :supergrin:
     
  47. But the post to which I was responding was clearly not written by an atheist.
     
  48. Have you personally been shown proof that neutrons exist? Other than just claims in a book (The Koran and Bible have witnessed claims too).


    The magic pixies (not pixels) may exist. I am not 100% certain they exist. I really doubt it though, Void* has been tap dancing too much to be a reliable source.



    Is there a god or gods?
    How do you know for sure, or are you unsure.
     
  49. Oh, I'm not saying you're not.

    It just does seem pretty strange for an agnostic to say something like "Life is simply too complex to have happened without a design."

    That's not a statement that it could be possible that it was designed. That's a statement that it's impossible for it to have *not* been. Which is not agnostic - it's a statement claiming specific knowledge that it can't have happened without a designer.

    For all I know, you just used stronger wording than you intended to.