Why is it so hard to admit Atheism is a Religion?

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Cavalry Doc, Nov 7, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    I don't think you are using the word "dichotomy" correctly. It does seem to be a favorite though.


    Like any other religion, there will be many denominations. Most of the Atheists I have discussed religion with are sold on the whole magic big bang theory, and evolution of species from simple single cell organisms, which themselves are amazingly complex, to mammals, reptiles etc.

    If that is not how you explain the origins of the human condition, do you have an alternate theory? What convinced you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  2. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    Descrimimation against agnostics? Why not? All the other religions do it.

    How would you define a strong gnostic atheist?
     

  3. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    That's a pretty good example of making your argument fit the solution you already have. The flagellum argument given leaves out the fact that those proteins are moved there, and do not simply randomly occur. Also, if the structure suddenly appeared on a bacterium that previously was without one, how would it know how to use it? How would it know that it had to make others when it decided to pass it down to the next generation? The flagellum is a very simple structure, and is still so complex that it is unlikely to occur by accident.

    The prof gave a good try at it, but there were a lot of missing links.
     
  4. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    Messages:
    6,883
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    #define NULL ((void *)0)
    Someone who thinks that they can know whether or not a god or god exists, and who does not believe a god or god exists.

    The fact that you're even asking the question indicates that you're not processing the statements that have been made on this in either thread.
     
  5. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    Messages:
    6,883
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    #define NULL ((void *)0)
    Oh, we have to go back to definitions, again, do we?
    2. logic the division of a class into two mutually exclusive subclasses: the dichotomy of married and single people

    You are arguing that if it is not ID, it has to be evolution.

    In fact, the possible combination of truth values include both ID and evolution being true (a creator who decided to create with evolution as a mechanism), just ID being true, just evolution being true, or neither ID nor evolution being true and the actual answer being some other physical mechanism that we do not yet know about.

    So, no, I am not using dichotomy incorrectly, and yes, you are setting up a false dichotomy.

    You are also arguing that people somehow have to fervently have 'faith' in evolution, when the reality is that various ideas are conditionally accepted or thrown out based on available evidence. That doesn't happen when a proposition is accepted on faith.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  6. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    You've jumped to a conclusion without examining the facts. I won't make any profound statements about you because of that though.

    I asked for your definition, just for insight, that's all.

    Did your friend have any convincing proof ? Or is she simply sure without having proof?
     
  7. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    I'm not trapped into the opposite possibilities that either an deity exists, and all of the knowledge of one religion is right, or there is no god, and it's all hogwash.

    I think there are different possibilities. Isn't it at least possible that there is a design, but that none of us actually have figured it out yet?

    Even the theory of evolution does not adequately explain how humans or other animals originated. It's still just a theory, not a law.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  8. RC-RAMIE

    RC-RAMIE

    Messages:
    2,700
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    No faith

    I don't explain it yet. Mankind has not figured out complete yet how we got here. I know what the current evidences show us.

    Im sure. How you ask the people who claim he is there can't prove it. Thats my prof.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  9. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    Messages:
    6,883
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    #define NULL ((void *)0)
    Umm, what?

    Either there is a creator, or there isn't. That's a true dichotomy. All possible creators are in the 'is a creator' class, and that says nothing about whether or not there is a religion for which all the knowledge of that religion is correct.

    Sure. Do you agree that if that were the case, then there is in fact a creator, and it therefore must be the case that there is not *not* a creator? That's one of the dichotomies. Any possibility you can think up for which there is a creator belongs in the 'is a creator' class, any possibility you can think up for which there is not a creator belongs in the 'Isn't a creator' class.

    Your statement that not believing there is a creator mandates a belief in evolution implies that the classes are actually 'There is a creator' and 'Evolution is true', and that is not the case. There are actually two independent dichotomies under examination, and it is demonstrably the case that the truth value of one overlaps the other (there are evolution proponents who believe it is a tool used by God to create, for instance, and there are evolution proponents who believe it is unnecessary to invoke a creator).

    And again, you're missing the point. The dichotomy 'Evolution happened / evolution didn't happen' says nothing about the dichotomy 'There is a creator / there isn't a creator'.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  10. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    The forms that creation could have taken are infinite. From one that just lit the fuse for the big bang and is watching what is happening, to a loving and caring shepherd that us interested in our personal lives. Maybe, the designer is not even aware in the conventional sense. We are. How we came to be here is a mystery. Some people claim to know the truth of whether there is or is not a creator, and they follow thier own religious beliefs in that regard, Atheists included.
     
  11. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    Messages:
    6,883
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    #define NULL ((void *)0)
    And yet again you are stating that we think we know, in the face of multiple statements, from multiple atheists, that we are not claiming to *know* it was not a creator. We are claiming to *not believe* that it was a creator.

    Knowledge and belief are different concepts, with different definitions, and the status of any particular person's statements on whether they can know, and whether they believe, are two, independent, variables.

    If you know something, it is not possible for you to be wrong.
    If you believe something, it is possible for you to be wrong.

    If a particular posit (such as the existence of a god) is such that it is *impossible* to be absolutely certain you cannot be wrong, then you cannot know. The only variable left is whether or not you believe the posit.

    This has been explained to you, multiple times, in multiple different ways, and you are still coming back and saying that, somehow, atheists automatically claim to know - when you have multiple atheists telling you honestly that we make no such claim.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  12. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    So, since it may not be possible to know, if you believe, that is a belief born of faith.

    Is it possible for someone to know something to be true, then later find that they were mistaken?

    I think the issue is that if you do not know, then you are simply guessing like everyone else. Why you are so firmly attached to your belief is another mystery. I've noticed many Atheists in GT berating others for believing in a deity. I'll be sure to ask them if they know there is no god or just believe there is no god from now on, then try to help them be tolerant of other religions.

    Thanks
     
  13. RC-RAMIE

    RC-RAMIE

    Messages:
    2,700
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    I answered you numerous times there is no god. It is not my job to prove that statement it is up to the people calming there is one.

    "I'll be sure to ask them if they know there is no god or just believe there is no god from now on, then try to help them be tolerant of other religions."

    That is really funny considering some of your post on muslims.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  14. 075vrAHwA

    075vrAHwA

    Messages:
    3,664
    Likes Received:
    57
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Obviously when the truth doesn't fit his preconceived notions, he doesn't care to know it.
     
  15. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    Messages:
    6,883
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    #define NULL ((void *)0)
    Yes. And if you do *not* believe, that is *not* faith, it is lack of faith. It does not take faith to not believe something that takes faith.

    It requires faith to believe in god. If you don't have that faith, you don't have faith.

    No. If there is the possibility of being mistaken, it is not knowledge in a philosophical sense.

    Example: The Pythagorean theorem. Within a Euclidean geometry, if you have a right triangle, the sum of the squares of the two other sides will equal the square of the hypotenuse. This has been proven. There is no way it is not the case - if a triangle is in a Euclidean geometry and it has a right angle, this relation will hold. So we can say that we *know* it. It's mathematically true, independent of the truth of anything else. If none of you really exist and I'm the only entity anywhere that actually perceives anything - the Pythagorean theorem is *still* mathematically true. So I can say that I *know* that, in a Euclidean geometry, a right triangle will meet that relation.

    Now, take string theory - the math works. We *know* the math works. But we aren't currently able to test that the math actually applies to reality, and we could be wrong, so we can't say we *know* string theory is true.

    We're not guessing. People say god exists. I say, show me evidence that will convince me to accept that posit. If you can, then I will accept it. If you can't, then I have no reason to accept it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  16. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    Messages:
    34,969
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    The truths that atheism fits the definition of a religion quite accurately. It's a mystery why it is so hard to admit.


    You have my permission to practice it any way you want, and the constitution will back you up too.

    Besides, it's only my (and Meriam-Websters) opinion that it fits. If I'm right or wrong, why would you care?
     
  17. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    Messages:
    6,883
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    #define NULL ((void *)0)
    We have been over that - Merriam-Webster, dictionary.com, and the Oxford english all have definitions defining atheism as 'disbelief in the existence of God or gods' with minor wording variations. (In fact, the online Oxford English supplies *only* that definition).

    Given that the definition of disbelief is 'the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true', the usage of atheism as 'a lack of acceptance of the posit that god or gods exist', or 'a lack of belief that a god or gods exist', or any of the myriad ways it has been worded in attempts to impart understanding to you, is entirely consistent with standard dictionary definitions.

    Your stubborn refusal to admit that accepted definitions apply has no bearing on whether or not they actually do. The reality is that your opinion is your opinion, and Merriam-Webster agrees that I have been using an acceptable definition.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  18. 075vrAHwA

    075vrAHwA

    Messages:
    3,664
    Likes Received:
    57
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Yea we know, its a religion because you say so. What a compelling argument.

    How magnanimous of you. You have my permission to continue being wrong.

    Why wouldn't I care? If I presumed to (incorrectly) tell you what you think, you'd just accept it?
     
  19. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

    Messages:
    8,723
    Likes Received:
    18
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2002
    Location:
    Lake Charles, LA
    That seems a good summary of it. Faith is not the same as belief, and we all believe in something whether it can be proven or not. Belief can be expressed as an understanding based on current best-fit science (I believe in the theory of evolution) or it can be belief based on past experience (I believe the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow) but that does not make it religious in nature.
     
  20. Lone Wolf8634

    Lone Wolf8634 :):

    Messages:
    10,896
    Likes Received:
    1,896
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Location:
    Under the bus
    Atheism is a religion? Perhaps..... if you wish to classify it that way. Some atheists band together to support one anothers belief...or disbelief. Creating a kind of "church" I suppose.

    And while I have not personally seen it, I'm sure somewhere there's a list of things you're supposed to believe in order to be a "good" atheist. Maybe a "Anti-holy book"?

    And maybe somewhere there's a group with a whole collection of rites and ceremonies to celebrate their beliefs. Complete with holidays to commemorate the joining of the first two chemicals, or maybe the anniversary of the first single celled organism.

    Maybe...perhaps....possibly.

    My own opinion on the question?

    It's amusing.

    Its amusing to see everyone so worried about how I, or others like me "classify" our views on a omnipotent, omniscient being who said a magic word and **POOF**!!! reality sprang into being.

    Its amusing (to me) that they mock, argue and roll their collective eyes at me, or others like me, who continually explain that we dont know how reality "started". And maybe its unknowable and maybe not.

    Its amusing to me that I, and others like me, are considered "close minded" because we dont rely on a book whose origins ore questionable, whose information is...incredible(most pc term I could think of), whose inconsistencies are glaring and is only ONE of many thousands that **claim** to have **all** the **answers**.

    You can classify my "belief any way you wish. Doesnt make a difference to me...... BUT!! you need to know that:

    1. My atheism has little to no bearing on my day to day life.
    2. I do not sit and think of other ways the universe came into being. If something makes sense..i.e evolution, I accept it at face value until something that makes more sense comes along. Hardly what you would call a hard "religious" belief.

    3. The only time I think deep thoughts about this crap is here.

    4. I didnt really set out to disbelieve so much as I examined religion as a whole, and summarily dismissed it. And to me, it IS as trivial as pixies, fairy dust and unicorns pooping skittles on a rainbow.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.