Why is it so hard to admit Atheism is a Religion?

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Cavalry Doc, Nov 7, 2010.

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  1. 075vrAHwA

    075vrAHwA

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    Its interesting that you jump on the broad, modern definition of agnostic while skipping the definition thats more truthful to the actual philosophical position. Doesn't fit your agenda, I suppose. :dunno:

    (A)theism = referring to belief or non-belief in god(s)
    (A)gnosticism = referring to knowledge of god(s)

    As has been stated, they're not mutually exclusive positions. Most "atheists" also fall into the agnostic category as well, i.e. "I don't believe in any gods but I don't claim to know they don't exist either."



    Great, you've established that you don't claim to know whether or not a god exists, now do you believe in one anyways? If you do, you're an Agnostic Theist and if not, an Agnostic Atheist.

    See how that works now?
     
  2. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Digital thinking may be terminal in this one.......


    Life is not on or off, black or white.....

    Life is not digital, it's analog.

    Life is best described as shades of gray, in infinite directions.


    You are asking if Vishnu exists or not, and I have answered that I am uncertain.

    I asked you if you believe Vishnu exists, and you haven't answered. Do you know? Do you just know it in your heart, or can you prove it one way or the other?

    But you edited the question out of your posts, because answering it honestly will further evidence your faith in your religion.

    Evidently, Atheists aren't as sure as I thought they were, or at least you aren't.


    I am answering your questions, even if you don't like the answers. You asked what you wished was a "Yes or NO" question, and forgot to consider that the answer "Maybe" is just as valid as the other two.

    You are not answering mine though. So, the hypocrisy is evident. Try to stop that if you can.
     

  3. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    You profess to know, without proof. I am humble enough to admit that I don't know.

    Who is being more honest?


    I believe that I don't know. I'm not so arrogant that I believe that I have to know everything. I know quite a lot, but in my 42 years, I have a wealth of experiences, that lead me to be unsure.


    You seem awful sure though. How did you arrive there?
     
  4. 2952

    2952

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    How many people that do not believe in GOD and believe we all came from pond scum or the Big Bang theory can believe that a tornado blowing through a junk yard can assemble a flyable working Boeing 747 from the junk in the yard.

    There is an order to the Universe and everything made in it. GOD made it.
     
  5. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    I applaud you for having the conviction to admit your faith.

    The atheists are still ignorant of their own, or at leas the won't admit it.




    It's odd, that the religion that is the least tolerant of others, that seeks to suppress the right of others to believe, or even not believe are those that claim to have no religion, while denying their own.
     
  6. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

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    That depends entirely on the domain of the question being asked. For instance, the answer to the question "What is the range of possible temperatures?" is *not* a continuous variable in both directions. It has a well known floor.

    The answer to the question "Are you wearing shoes?" is, in fact, binary.

    And so is the answer to the question "Do you accept the proposition x is true?".

    No, I am not asking if Vishnu exists.
    I am asking if you *believe* that Vishnu exists.
    You responded by answering a different question than the one asked.

    No, I do not. See how easy that is?

    Nope.

    It can't be proven one way or the other.

    Answering "Maybe" is not answering "Yes" - which is, I think, the whole reason you're answering *other* questions, rather than the one I actually asked.

    To get right down to it, if you cannot say "Yes" to the question "Do you believe Vishnu exists", (or, equivalently, "Do you accept the proposition that Vishnu exists?"), then you don't believe Vishnu exists. You might be uncertain, you might not be able to prove it, you might not be able to know - but all of that is irrelevant, you don't believe if you can't say yes to the question "Do you believe?"

    "knowledge" and "belief" are quite well defined terms in this respect, they are individually true dichotomies, and they are not mutually exclusive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  7. Ersatz

    Ersatz

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    Cav, could you lay out your evidence for a deity?
     
  8. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    You are starting to sound like an agnostic....


    You can't stand someone admitting that they don't know. It's a matter of arrogance and being honest with yourself. I am not so arrogant that I believe I know the truth about everything, and I am humble enough to admit that to myself.



    So, how do you KNOW Vishnu does not exist. An honest person would answer that they do not...... Unless you are about to surprise the heck out of me with some unprecedented revelation.
     
  9. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

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    Yet, you are so arrogant as to tell people that they profess to know, when they are *continually* telling you that they do not.

    (Apologies, mikeflys, if you're actually a strong/gnostic atheist, but from what I've read, I think the assumption that you're not is fairly safe).
     
  10. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

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    Please quote where I've said that I know that Vishnu does not exist.

    Perhaps you might want to review the post in which I answered your question, as I quite specifically remember answering "Nope" to the question "Do you know?".

    See what I mean about my stating I don't claim to know, and you coming back and claiming that I have?

    I don't know.
    I do not have faith that Vishnu is real.
    Just like, I suspect, you don't have faith that Vishnu is real.

    Which is the entire point, because my lack of faith that Vishnu is real is not the same thing as an active faith that Vishnu *isn't* real.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  11. Ersatz

    Ersatz

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    You're pissing into the wind. ;)
     
  12. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

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    Probably - but there's always the hope that someone else will come across it, read it, think about it, and get the point.
     
  13. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Life is simply too complex to have happened without a design. Several organs and even simple structures require too many things to be in just the right place in order to function. A simple flagella requires several atoms to be arranged into molecules, those molecules into compounds, those compounds to be arranged in symmetrical structures with the remainder being suddenly apparent.

    [​IMG]

    Such a simple thing, is yet, so complex. Fill a jar with Blue, red, yellow and gray marbles. Shake them up. Stop when you see the pattern above. Now continue, until the jar is arranged in that pattern from top to bottom.

    There are several intermediate steps that would make this very simple structure inoperative. This does not even begin to broach the complexity of an organism being able to selectively use this structure to get itself toward food, or away from danger.


    On the other hand, there are several religions, most exclude the others, so which one is right? Which one really knows, or do any of them?



    I'm only human. All I know for sure, is that several people in this thread aren't able to evaluate their belief system objectively.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  14. RC-RAMIE

    RC-RAMIE

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    What faith? I am atheist. That does not require faith. I do not claim to have all the answers I just claim that the god answer is lacking any evidence for me to consider it.

    My atheism does not claim to know or seek to know the basic nature of the universe, that what science does.
     
  15. RC-RAMIE

    RC-RAMIE

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    You starting to sound less agnostic.
     
  16. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

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    Maybe coming at it the other way ...


    Cavalry Doc, do you admit that there are people who would say they cannot prove that God exists, but that believe that God exists?

    Have you seen the argument that God cannot allow himself to be provable because then it would not take faith to believe?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  17. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

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    He claimed agnosticism in the other thread because I made a statement about him believing.

    I was making a probabilistic assessment of his belief based on the known belief of many other people I have had similar conversations with.

    He claimed agnosticism, I claimed 'my bad'. We'll see how that works out in the end.
     
  18. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    But do you know that there is no god, or are you unsure?
     
  19. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Just willing to consider both sides of the issue. given billions and billions of years, anything is possible.

    Given that there are many different religions, and some older ones than are currently popular, which one is right?



    It's an open mind thing. :wavey:
     
  20. Animal Mother

    Animal Mother Not Enough Gun

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    Any number of functional evolutionary pathways for flagella have been proposed and detailed since Behe first made this argument. Here's one.
     
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