Glock Forum - GlockTalk banner
241 - 260 of 279 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,071 Posts
When I used to carry a 649 Bodyguard in a raincoat outer pocket, worn over a sport coat in cold/wet weather, I could easily have my hand on the gun without anyone realizing I was doing something other than keeping my hands warm. Much faster than trying to get at my primary weapon. Fortunately, I never had to perforate my raincoat pocket.

Being able to surreptitiously grasp a pocket-holstered weapon is an advantage not typically available with other carry methods. Obviously, the constraints of the pocket mean even greater attention must be given to avoiding having your trigger finger be caused to enter the trigger guard or touch the trigger while drawing from the pocket, and especially while clearing the pocket mouth. This is also where the weight and length of trigger pull of a DA/DAO revolver's trigger might be an extra bit of prudence if things get fast and fuzzy.
Sounds good if you've got giant pockets or wear a jacket all the time. I've never owned a pair of pants with pockets big enough to hold a gun AND my hand wrapped around it. Now that I wear jeans almost exclusively, that's even more true. And around here, I need a jacket maybe 10% of the year. I've also never figured out how to efficiently draw from my right pocket with my left hand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,071 Posts
Youtube. Shootouts and random gang violence are at an all time high, and are changing well outside the realm of the Olde statistics. Much of it is recorded now.

Expect 25y ranges and more than 10 rounds.

The people training at a static range at just 7 yards are really handicapping themselves. Consider USPSA to hone your accuracy, and movements. Even hardcore tac training doesn't give you as much chance to draw, shoot, and move, as competition. At least it's value added.
Yeah, but those shootouts are generally between gang members. Unless you're a gang member, the odds of getting in a protracted gunfight are pretty close to zero. If I thought that those kind of odds meant it was necessary for me to prepare for those kind of gunfights, I'd also be sleeping in a fire retardant suit with an oxygen mask and the largest fire extinguisher I could find beside the bed because the odds of my house catching fire while I'm sleeping are way higher than my odds of getting in a protracted gun fight with multiple assailants. In life, we can always prepare better for the bad things that might happen, but most of us weigh the odds, make rational decisions regarding the threat level, and act accordingly. I'm not knocking anyone who enjoys competition that simulates protracted shootouts with multiple armed attackers as a form of recreation, but if one does it primarily because they think they're likely to get into that type of gunfight, I think there is a bit of Walter Mittyism at play. Either that or they need to move.
 

·
I feel pretty.
Joined
·
4,483 Posts
Plenty of car jackings, gang initiations, robberies, and gas station white victims. Many of them are like a roving feral dog pack.

It's not a preppers wet dream anymore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,601 Posts
Sounds good if you've got giant pockets or wear a jacket all the time. I've never owned a pair of pants with pockets big enough to hold a gun AND my hand wrapped around it. Now that I wear jeans almost exclusively, that's even more true. And around here, I need a jacket maybe 10% of the year. I've also never figured out how to efficiently draw from my right pocket with my left hand.
I never had you figured for a skinny jeans guy... not that there's anything wrong with that ;) I don't pocket carry much with jeans, but I do have a bulldog pocket holster that presents the grip a little higher and works OK. Cargo shorts or BDU's, you bet.

Yeah, but those shootouts are generally between gang members. Unless you're a gang member, the odds of getting in a protracted gunfight are pretty close to zero. If I thought that those kind of odds meant it was necessary for me to prepare for those kind of gunfights, I'd also be sleeping in a fire retardant suit with an oxygen mask and the largest fire extinguisher I could find beside the bed because the odds of my house catching fire while I'm sleeping are way higher than my odds of getting in a protracted gun fight with multiple assailants. In life, we can always prepare better for the bad things that might happen, but most of us weigh the odds, make rational decisions regarding the threat level, and act accordingly. I'm not knocking anyone who enjoys competition that simulates protracted shootouts with multiple armed attackers as a form of recreation, but if one does it primarily because they think they're likely to get into that type of gunfight, I think there is a bit of Walter Mittyism at play. Either that or they need to move.
Ima practice my sideways J frame technique now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,476 Posts
Youtube. Shootouts and random gang violence are at an all time high, and are changing well outside the realm of the Olde statistics. Much of it is recorded now.

Expect 25y ranges and more than 10 rounds.

The people training at a static range at just 7 yards are really handicapping themselves. Consider USPSA to hone your accuracy, and movements. Even hardcore tac training doesn't give you as much chance to draw, shoot, and move, as competition. At least it's value added.

You think a running gunfight at 25 yards is to be expected? I’m not sure if you’re serious or just trolling.

I have no intent of playing any gun games at this point in my life. If you think they have something to offer and you enjoy them, more power to you.

I’ve watched thousands of videos over the years, active self-protection, surveillance footage, news stories, plus I’ve studied and analyzed a lot of video with the cops and PD’s I’ve worked with over the years. What a cop has to do is much different than the directives an armed civilian should and has to follow. And be sure not to confuse gang activity with personal defense. Context matters, so you have to be able to differentiate between them.

I’m not sure who mentioned static shooting at 7 yards. I’ve ben training and teaching FOF for over 30 years. At 25 yards my movement is almost assuredly to extricate me and mine away from the threat, not engage. The movement seen in gun games is inapplicable to virtually any realistic civilian encounter IMO. What’s truly lacking from most guy guys repertoire is an understanding of movement and footwork at contact distances.

Anyone can make a statement claiming anything they want on a gun forum, but it doesn’t mean much if it’s not backed up by facts, logic and available evidence. There’s literally thousands upon thousands of all types of attacks and acts of civilian self-defense on YouTube, so it shouldn’t be that difficult to compile a very lengthy list of incidents that support your assertions.

I have a life to live with limited time available to me, so I don’t like to waste it. I just don’t concern myself all that much with theoretically possible scenarios whose occurrence has never happened or are so rare that it’s like getting struck by lightning on a clear day. Even if someone, sometime, somewhere was actually struck and killed by lightning with a blue sky overheard doesn’t justify walking around wearing a portable faraday cage. But, that’s just me, maybe you think it does.


YMMV, so prepare and carry as you see fit.
 

·
I feel pretty.
Joined
·
4,483 Posts
Do some more research. That church shooting wasn't the only longer range engagement in the last few years.

25 yards is the width of a convenience store. Not a football field. If you can rock bullseyes at 25 yards, 10 yards is cake. Heck, eventually 10 yards is point shooting.


If a J Frame is suffering at 7 yards, and nearly impossible at 25 yards, it's fair to say it's at a disadvantage. I hope that any opponent I'd every have, would have a subcompact or less.

''Gun games''. Where in the world do you get any movement at all? Realistic or not, some movement, any movement, any challenges, is way waaaaay better practice than a static DNR range.

You're missing out. For $20-25 they setup the range, give you challenging targets that you'll never see anywhere else, and clean up at the end.

Other than going to Detroit and walking the streets at night, our choices are: Static range, competition, or the single yearly expensive class (that's also usually limited). I can't even draw at my static range.

I just seems very short sighted, to limit yourself to the skill level of 1990's statistics, and what an 70 year old man shoots. When you could push yourself to a higher level, with a better firearm than a dinky old little revolver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,476 Posts
Do some more research. That church shooting wasn't the only longer range engagement in the last few years.

25 yards is the width of a convenience store. Not a football field. If you can rock bullseyes at 25 yards, 10 yards is cake. Heck, eventually 10 yards is point shooting.


If a J Frame is suffering at 7 yards, and nearly impossible at 25 yards, it's fair to say it's at a disadvantage. I hope that any opponent I'd every have, would have a subcompact or less.

''Gun games''. Where in the world do you get any movement at all? Realistic or not, some movement, any movement, any challenges, is way waaaaay better practice than a static DNR range.

You're missing out. For $20-25 they setup the range, give you challenging targets that you'll never see anywhere else, and clean up at the end.

Other than going to Detroit and walking the streets at night, our choices are: Static range, competition, or the single yearly expensive class (that's also usually limited). I can't even draw at my static range.

I just seems very short sighted, to limit yourself to the skill level of 1990's statistics, and what an 70 year old man shoots. When you could push yourself to a higher level, with a better firearm than a dinky old little revolver.

I’ve done my research. Where is your evidence? You can’t provide any because it doesn’t exist.

What’s with the constant static range talk. I’ve been criticizing it for years. I had my own range on 40 acres for decades. We could do what we wanted.

I’m generally not moving toward a threat unless extremely close and it’s the best course of action, which generally means it’s a combatives problem. Otherwise, it’s most often movement away. No absolutes though. I’m not cop and won’t involve me and mine in matters not directly affecting me and mine. I have no interest in entertaining John Wick fantasies.

You keep talking about movement, but do you have any clue what that really entails? In close, footwork is a better way to frame it and not just movement. Most gun guys have absolutely zero understanding of it and gun games surely don’t address it, because it’s inapplicable to the sport. Longer ranges can be simply expanding and adapting the footwork and then simply understanding and having high mobility capability, but most gun guys fall short in that area as well.

Guns are just tools to me, and it’s a matter of picking the right tool for the job. I actually own double the number of autoloaders as I do revolvers and the only revolvers I have any use for are shrouded and enclosed hammer snubs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,659 Posts
Just a gratuitous pic of my favorite two J-Frames..

Every time I think about selling one, I talk myself out of it..

In all honesty, a G43 replaced the 642 as my “run around town” carry, for now, but I still trust the j frame more..

Revolver Camera accessory Finger Gadget Digital camera
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32,346 Posts
Sounds good if you've got giant pockets or wear a jacket all the time. I've never owned a pair of pants with pockets big enough to hold a gun AND my hand wrapped around it. Now that I wear jeans almost exclusively, that's even more true. And around here, I need a jacket maybe 10% of the year. I've also never figured out how to efficiently draw from my right pocket with my left hand.
Pocket holster carry obviously has limitations as well as advantages. My normal jackets and suit/sport coats won't hold a pocketed J-frame, but my leather & synthetic MC riding jackets will. As a matter of fact, the inner breast pocket of my leather riding jacket is a heavy leather "holster" pocket that was sewn into it by a leather shop that offered the service for many years. Accommodates a holstered (UM cloth) J-frame quite easily, with plenty of room to spare. Ditto some of my non-riding denim and insulated jackets having the ability to slip a pocket holster into the inner breast pockets. It's a seasonal thing, though.

My jeans and cargo pants pants are a mixed bag. Some will, and some won't. That's the only reason I own a couple of LCP's. ;) Some front pockets will allow me to slip my hand around the grip ... and some are too short and tight to even secure the pocket-holstered J's. But they will accommodate the holstered LCP's properly.

Accessing a pocket-holstered gun in a breast pocket is fine while seated/driving, but not so for one in a front pocket (without significant shifting).

Compromise is involved in all carry methods. BTDT while working uniform and plainclothes and responding to situations while seated in veh's. And all throughout my younger years carrying off-duty weapons ranging from large .357's/.44's & .45's, to the smaller snubs and pistols.

Naturally, I was fortunate in being able to frequently practice using my pocket-holster methods on my agency range, working the range, so I had plenty of opportunities to work out the kinks with all season clothing (outdoor ranges for all those years).

Pocket holster carry certainly isn't ideal, but it offers an option if OWB, IWB (and AIWB) and shoulder holster carry methods don't suit the circumstances. (I never acquired the taste for ankle carry, myself, although it can be handy for seated situations where pant cuffs are long enough not to rise.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32,386 Posts
Do some more research. That church shooting wasn't the only longer range engagement in the last few years.
But you're still talking a tiny, tiny, percentage of total shootings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gray Dood

·
Registered
Joined
·
32,346 Posts
I'm curious... why the hard sell on snubbie revolvers ?
I don't see it as nearly the 'hard sell' that proponents of double stack pistols push. ;) Or any particular carry method, comes to that. Look how the AIWB carry method has become the darling of so many people.

All handguns are a combination of various compromises in their individual advantages and disadvantages, and once situational context is thrown into the mix, it may become less clear from one perspective to the next.

Then, there's the inevitable user familiarity & skill context. Some guns may often be considered harder to use than some others by average owners/users, and some skillsets may not be up to dealing with some of the difficulties involved in effectively using some guns.

It is what it is, and some folks seem to take exception to anyone feeling differently about something than themselves.

Sometimes diversity can be a good thing, though. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32,346 Posts
I'm curious... why the hard sell on snubbie revolvers ?

FWIW, I could go on at length about the beneficial and practical attributes of the venerable 1911 ... or many TDA pistols (DA/SA) ... or metal-framed ... or plastic-framed ... of single stacks ... or double stacks ... or SA revolvers ... or DA revolvers, etc.

It's still a tool, though, and while tool development and refinement is always a nice thing to see, when the rubber meets the road it's usually going to come down to whether the tool-user is up to the needs of the moment. Any moment. All moments. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,073 Posts
I can only speak for myself, but to me and for my circumstances, it’s the most effective weapon for the scenarios I’m most likely to encounter.
As you said, to each their own. Carry what you want but just like the C1 vs. C3 thread, there are opinions and there are facts. The snubby is NOT the most effective weapon for any scenario. It is simply a compromise that often works.

Maybe I am getting confused (which is possible considering how much I post) but in one of the two threads where we discuss C3, didn't you say you are an unarmed combatives instructor and not a certified firearms instructor? I ask because in this thread you state you have taught FOF for 30 years. I asked in this thread and you didn't reply (or maybe I missed it) but what martial art do you teach? I asked that Q earlier in regards to your comments here about gun gurus and their followers like AIWB and how squared up hips against an opponent is not a preferred method in unarmed combat. I am surprised no one told boxers or UFC fighters that.

I guess I have been a student of fighting concepts for almost 40 years now and a DT and Firearms instructor for close to 20. What I have found is that fighting both armed and unarmed is continually evolving. What works today might not work in the future. Tool development IS a good thing and many tactics have changed because of it but as Fastbolt said, the determination of the end user and their skillset is most often what determines the victor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,476 Posts
As you said, to each their own. Carry what you want but just like the C1 vs. C3 thread, there are opinions and there are facts. The snubby is NOT the most effective weapon for any scenario. It is simply a compromise that often works.

Maybe I am getting confused (which is possible considering how much I post) but in one of the two threads where we discuss C3, didn't you say you are an unarmed combatives instructor and not a certified firearms instructor? I ask because in this thread you state you have taught FOF for 30 years. I asked in this thread and you didn't reply (or maybe I missed it) but what martial art do you teach? I asked that Q earlier in regards to your comments here about gun gurus and their followers like AIWB and how squared up hips against an opponent is not a preferred method in unarmed combat. I am surprised no one told boxers or UFC fighters that.

I guess I have been a student of fighting concepts for almost 40 years now and a DT and Firearms instructor for close to 20. What I have found is that fighting both armed and unarmed is continually evolving. What works today might not work in the future. Tool development IS a good thing and many tactics have changed because of it but as Fastbolt said, the determination of the end user and their skillset is most often what determines the victor.

The snub is the best weapon in contact scenarios. Really hard to dispute that and I don’t think anyone that understands that facet of fighting would disagree. If I see a threat in advance, I’ll simply avoid it. It’s the ones I miss that erupt up close that concern me the most and I can get a snub into action faster and keep it running more reliably in those scenarios.

What martial art do I teach? That’s actually a hard question to answer at this point considering I’ve been advocating for eclectic/hybrid/mixed martial arts since the 80’s. I could tell you my background and where I’ve been and what I’ve done, but you likely wouldn’t believe it and demand proof. I could care less either way.

FOF was all close-in work with cops using demo guns, airsoft or sim guns. I never taught ranged or live fire. I’m not a shooter, I’m a martial artist who crossed over.

The admonishment was to always square the hips when in contact. That’s just flat out wrong, but the guy teaching it is a pretty mediocre martial artist with limited insight, but he speaks the language guys like, uses the right verbiage, puts forth easy to understand codifications and clever marketing to sell his method to people who don’t know any better.

I’ve not worked with any real high level boxers that I recall, but have trained with and coached some of the worlds best karate, kickboxing, wrestling and MMA athletes and fighters and they already know better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,664 Posts
The snub is the best weapon in contact scenarios. Really hard to dispute that and I don’t think anyone that understands that facet of fighting would disagree.
I like snubs just fine, and I’m good with them, but I’ll dispute it. If it’s only a contact scenario I’d rather have a good seven inch Bowie or Randall #1 than a snub any day. As has been said, though, handguns are a compromise. We carry them because the chances of it being a contact scenario are pretty slim, and pistols are better at more things than knives are regarding SD. However, they’re not better at contact distances. It’s one of the reasons basic knife defense with a handgun is to create distance as soon as practical. So, for general purpose a j-frame is better than a good fixed blade for SD. But, a guy with a good knife, especially if he knows how to use that knife, is a bigger threat at contact range than the guy with a snub.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,476 Posts
I like snubs just fine, and I’m good with them, but I’ll dispute it. If it’s only a contact scenario I’d rather have a good seven inch Bowie or Randall #1 than a snub any day. As has been said, though, handguns are a compromise. We carry them because the chances of it being a contact scenario are pretty slim, and pistols are better at more things than knives are regarding SD. However, they’re not better at contact distances. It’s one of the reasons basic knife defense with a handgun is to create distance as soon as practical. So, for general purpose a j-frame is better than a good fixed blade for SD. But, a guy with a good knife, especially if he knows how to use that knife, is a bigger threat at contact range than the guy with a snub.
My comparison was intended to be snub vs autoloader, but I’d still choose one over a blade almost all of the time at contact distance. You create distance against a blade not because it’s inherently better at that range, but because it’s a contact weapon and you completely nullify its ability to hurt you while distance is maintained.

I think people overestimate their ability with a knife and most of the (southeast Asian) martial arts that focus on it are not real practical IMO, but untrained people can be deadly with both. Between two relatively physically equal individuals, gunman trained in ECQ vs trained knifer, I’d give the advantage to the gunman in most instances.
 
241 - 260 of 279 Posts
Top