Who still carries a 357 sig Glock?

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by VIS07, Oct 19, 2019.

  1. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers No Stock Glock's

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    I will.buy my buddy that has the 357 Sigs a couple boxed of this. I have, as far as simi-auto pistols go, I have about all the calibers I want, which is 3.

    9mm, 38 Super, 45acp

    Now I get sorta crazy with Revolvers. :D


    We ought to get to pop a couple hogs before Christmas. He shot 12 with the 1350 fps Speer load and they penetrate very well. All hogs shot once and didn't run no more that 30 to 35 yards.

    Hard to test and get everything 100% the same. Oh and all hogs get eaten buy us or we donate the meat we don't have room for. It's good for the hunting community to do that I believe.

    I like Underwoods ammo for the 9mm, there freaking consistent and dont have much variation from shot to shot like some. Plus there 147gr +P 9mm load is accurate. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  2. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    You should do some research on DocGKR.
    With an open mind...


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  3. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers No Stock Glock's

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    That fellow has done alot for the Duty Caliber testing.

    Hell I believe if it wasn't for him and the folks he studded under the 9mm would not have caught up to its fellow cartridges.
     
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  4. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    I have researched for 20 years that is why my two carry rounds are 357 Sig and .40 in the 165gr weight.
     
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  5. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Here is a.....shocking video of a man shot once at the White House by a secret service agent armed with a 357 Sig. Not killed, no bleed out, no multiple shots just dropped and stopped instantly when it counted.



    View: https://youtu.be/4MRHEZACXPY
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  6. thoin

    thoin

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    Greetings all.

    I've been reading this thread with great interest - so I decided to jump in with "just my 2 pennies worth." The .357 Sig is my preferred round, but with this caveat in "dumb old country boy terms" and from 20+ years of carrying it for "serious, social encounters of the up-close and personal kind" - I like starting a 9mm size bullet into a .40 caliber hole - for reliable feeding. Do I feel lacking when I carry a 9mm - not at all. To quote an old axiom I learned in the Marine Corps: Hits count - Noise don't. I spent 30 years with an LE agency, at one time was the lead firearms instructor, learned a bit about ballistics and bullet performance during that time, studied reports from actual shootings, and led the way for that agency to adopt the .357 Sig - 20+ years ago. I didn't rely on "what I heard" from someone; what I saw in a video; or what I read in a book or magazine. I do like the 9mm, but use standard pressure loadings - theoretically for a bit more penetration with less expansion. Yup, perhaps a bit contrary to my choice of the .357 Sig, but I like it. Your personal preference, for whatever reason, is basically just that - your personal preference. No harm and No foul.

    As you know, bullets just punch holes in the "target" - paper, gel or whatever - more akin to sticking an ice pick into the body vs an open hand. Testing mediums - gel, etc. - which I have used, are for assistance to give a good theoretical idea of bullet performance and in my case to help standardization for purchasing. I do not believe in "knockdown power" because physics dictates that for the bullet to knock the bad guy or gal down, the firearm will do the same to the shooter when he or she fires it. There is no magic bullet or caliber. People react in different ways to being shot and it's not a constant. Bullets are designed with given parameters of performance and each bullet in a given box or magazine can behave differently in the target medium. I want a caliber that will reliably put the bullet into the bad guy's "hydraulics and pneumatics" (or brain housing group if warranted) with sufficient wounding and trauma along the way, regardless of reasonable intermediate barriers. With that said, residents of cemeteries across the world are there because of a .22 LR; 25 ACP; 32 ACP; .380; etc.

    To close this "epistle from a pseudo-apostle" - shot placement is key. To paraphrase an old Speer reloading manual: "You'll be way ahead if you're willing to give up 10% in velocity to gain 20% better accuracy. The animal doesn't have any idea of the caliber it was shot with or the velocity of the bullet - and it will be just as dead."

    Best regards to all.
     
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  7. triaxle

    triaxle

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    A small dept right around here use it and have for a good while.
     
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  8. thoin

    thoin

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    My former agency still does and it has served them very well over the years. I do like the extra "punch" that it offers. I still wonder why the difference in the profile of the HP on Gold Dot ammo vs 9mm. My "un-educated" guess is that it's either for OAL or to increase onset of expansion - or perhaps both.
     
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  9. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers No Stock Glock's

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    The funky nose cavity or, I should say shallow cavity on the Sig bullet is, it seems for the delay of expansion.

    I have pushed 9mm Gold Dots to the point of over expansion in my 9mm's and 38 Super's.

    Underwood had a 115gr +p+ load at over 1,400 fps in 9mm that gave TREMENDOUS expansion but short penetration, well I call 9 inches short penetration. The Speer load at 1,300 fps will get 13 to 14 + inches in a Wild Hog. Seems Speer knows there bullets pretty well. :D

    This is my experience and my $0.02, I am sure someone else can explain it better than myself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  10. thoin

    thoin

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    The 38 Super - an oldie but still a good one. Had a Colt's Combat Commander in that caliber once and I still kick myself for getting rid of it.

    You might be on it ref the bullet cavity. As I said earlier, as long as it reaches the "hydraulics and pmeumatics" we're good to go.
     
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  11. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Thank you for saying so, it is appreciated.

    And it's okay to have a personal preference towards a particular caliber. I like 40S&W, always have. I wanted a Glock 23 almost from the time they first came out. And when I did get one (G23.3) I carried it for years. I liked the 40S&W, not because I thought it was better than any of the other service calibers, but rather simply because I liked the caliber. The platform, the Glock 23 on the other hand, I traded it off for an SKS or something. I don't like finger grooves on Glocks, particularly the compact sized pistols. Just don't fit my hand right. Full size is okay and I can tolerate the sub-compacts but for some reason the compact is a no-go. However, now that I have a G19.5 I know that if they came out with a G23.5 I'd be all over it. But again, not because I think the round is inherently better than any other service caliber, simply because I like it.

    To be honest, my agency doesn't recognize 40S&W or 357sig. The approved caliber list is .380, 9mm, .38 Special and 45acp. Why? Simply because the approved list was created well before the 40/357sig were invented and it's never been updated. Simply a fiscal thing really. We carry half a million rounds of the approved stuff and from a ballistics standpoint the 40/357 don't offer anything the 9/45 don't offer in terms of terminal ballistics so it was considered fiscally responsible to keep the list as-is rather than spending additional tax-payer dollars to add two more rounds and a 100K round count. I can understand that.

    I have no issue if someone likes 357sig. As an instructor, expert witness and researcher however, I feel inclined to speak up when anyone discusses terms like stopping power, knock down power, kinetic energy dump, wound ballistics theory, one shot stops etc, because I know the people that started some of those catch phrases have been discredited and their 'theories' debunked decades ago. And the other terms are gun rag terms. I say, 'like the caliber because you like the caliber' but not because of discredited dribble that some attempted to pass off as research years ago. As a side note, the guy that created the Wound Ballistic Theory joined GT maybe a decade or so ago and began trying to get converts. He and the theory were blasted soundly. He would start thread after thread after thread and flame anyone daring to poke holes in the theory to the point he'd get banned. He'd then rejoin under a new screen name and start again. I mean within an hour of being banned. I guess they finally banned his IP address because he eventually stopped. It was nothing more than the repackaged 'kinetic energy dump' theory from the 80's. And to be clear, I'm talking handgun and not rifle (or the bigger/faster hunting calibers).

    Anyway, interesting thread.

    I know that if you run a 124+P GD through a PCC you pick up an additional 200fps +/- and that it tends to deform the bullet. That amount of velocity is outside the performance window for which it was designed. Doesn't make it a bad choice out of a PCC, just doesn't perform as designed.
     
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  12. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers No Stock Glock's

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    I have a couple 1911's that were my Dads in 38 Super, he was the reason I like the Super and appreciate the 9mm for what it is. Anyway I tried to be like my dad so I had a couple Super barrels fitted to my 1911's :D
     
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  13. unit1069

    unit1069

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    I recall a half-dozen or so years ago reading several articles about the ballistics tests that used a dense wax instead of calibrated gel. The wax testing provided the total amount of material displaced with whatever particular round is shot into it and indicated that measurement would add to the body of knowledge about wounding activity. Yes, gel is elastic much as the human body, but the total cubic inches of material displaced can also be of value when considering the totality of terminal ballistics effectiveness. If anyone can find some of those articles I would appreciate seeing them again, as I cannot locate them.
     
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  14. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers No Stock Glock's

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    I want to also clarify some stuff, I have a belly full of breakfast and coffee so I can sorta function. o_O

    1st. I don't care what anyone caries for Self Defense. We're all grown men and women hear, although sometimes I wonder. :D

    2nd. I never really bought into the "Shock" thing because I can't see it in the calibers we're discussing hear. In critters all we see (my friends and I) are hole's plowed through skin, bones, muscles, fat, and organs. every once and a while we do get something funky happen that makes my buddy's and I go, "W.T.F" ??? But we don't have enough "Data" to call it anything but "COOL Check that out"...

    3rd. I believe whenever some say "Modern ammo made them equal" folks automatically get offended. I may be wrong in this but it is what I think and I want to talk about it. :D

    Ok back in the day we all know the 147gr 9mm loads were not what you'd call "Awesome" but the 45 was damn good and so were the 357 Magnums. Well fast forward 25 to 35 years and now the 9mm has just caught up to it's brother service calibers.

    It is not that the 9mm has now become Thor's Hammer it is just the 45 acp, 40 S&W, and 357 Sig were ALREADY GOOD! the 9mm has just caught up. Ok, so ya say, "Fool if the new technology has helped the 9mm become good it has made the others GREAT".

    From what I have read and understand, the other service calibers were already so good with the older tech ammo that they didn't see the jump in advancement like the 9mm did, sorta like there is no such thing as "More Gooder" on a scale from suck to good, good is,,,,, well good. It is the best it can be.

    This is just a look into what I think. I post a bit, but most of my stuff is 3 or 4 lines or maybe a paragraph or two. With my ADHD my brain out runs my fingers, plus I can ramble, this alot of the reasons I dont jump in much but I love to talk about Ballistics. Then all my posting on a smartphone :confused: yes, yes I am off in the head for that, plus I refuse to take the medication the Dr's say take for this. I do not like the way it makes me feel. So I tend to get frustrated cause I know what I want to say but cant say it the way I want to, so I want or dont post or say much.

    I do not want to start a argument, this is MY opinion. We all have them. I just won't to state what I think goes on when bullets hit stuff. :D

    Edited : I have had 40's and a 357 Sig in the past, plus my buddy's have these calibers. I just keep my Simi-autos cut down to 3, I have a serious Revolver addiction that I MUST provide for :eek:. I do know the 40 and Sig are accurate, dependable, the ones I owned, and do there job. Recoil was NOT A PROBLEM, hell I actually like shooting 454 Casule's and the 460 S&W Magnum.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  15. TacticalDesire

    TacticalDesire

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    The fact that there are even caliber debates tells me everything I need to know. If there was one that was definitively better, everyone would be using it.

    But the fact that everyone is arguing over 9mm vs .40 vs .357 vs .45 tells me that they're all close enough to each other to warrant discussion.

    I'll take the one that gives me the same terminal performance (or no appreciable difference) with less recoil, more rounds and lower cost. Smacking steel plates, phone books or bowling pins harder tells me absolutely nothing. Humans are elastic.

    Now and then I carry a .45 when the mood strikes, and I don't lose any sleep over that either. In fact, I wouldn't lose sleep with any of them. Because it's the Indian not the arrow. People that fixate on caliber typically need more training (if they have any) and the resources would be better spent elsewhere.

    Pick one and move on.
     
  16. TacticalDesire

    TacticalDesire

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    That's a sample size of one. Sometimes a punch is all it takes to knock the fight out of someone. Who's to say he wouldn't have reacted the same if he had been shot with .22lr? There's a psychological factor people don't consider. Not everyone is created equal. There's numerous examples of people getting pumped full of rounds and still having fight left.
     
  17. quantico

    quantico 1911 lover Millennium Member

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    I do engineering work on a 21 floor building , if those guys that dont believe in phone books.. but likely do believe in ufo stuff and sasquatch sightings could just wait on the sidewalk outside that building i can get you some phone book data coming down quickly.. lets see, 32 feet per second per second... if will be down soon.
     
  18. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers No Stock Glock's

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  19. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    "The fact that there are even caliber debates tells me everything I need to know. If there was one that was definitively better, everyone would be using it."

    For years, Law enforcement used the 38 special. Then, the 357 Magnum came along, and it was definitively better, and soon, everybody was using it.

    But then everyone wanted higher capacity guns so they went to semi-autos in 9mm. Then somebody figure out how to chamber a semi-auto in a cartridge that duplicated the 357 magnum, but it never really caught on, even though it was successful.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  20. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Well then, please share your research with us.
    If it’s more scientific and inclusive than Dr. Robert’s I’d love to see it!


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