Who still carries a 357 sig Glock?

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by VIS07, Oct 19, 2019.

  1. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Nope. That’s why I choose carefully who I listen to.

    When guys like this talk, I listen:


    View: https://youtu.be/odbb8IrROz4


    When guys who design and build bullets for a living talk, I listen.

    And when DocGKR talks, I listen.

    When guys tell me it’s faster so it has to be better.
    I laugh...



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    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  2. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    If you really want a bullet that outperforms the 9mm you should probably look at this:


    View: https://youtu.be/z1DeT4hana0


    But you still give-up capacity and faster follow-up shots for marginal increases.

    But hey, maybe you’ll only need one...


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  3. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    It wouldn't do him any good on this thread.
     
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  4. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 9mm, putting in work since 1902 !

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    Ok, I have a honest question, so I expect honest answers, I am gonna regret this.... :mad:


    Ok, ya have a 125gr Gold Dot 357 Sig load at 1350 fps 506 fpe.

    I have a 124gr 9mm Gold Dot at 1200 fps and 420 fpe.

    If both bullets go,,,, say EXACTLY 15 inches and expands to .65 what does the 357 Sig load offer me more than the 9mm?

    This is naturally hypothetical hear cause you can twist anything any way. The thing is YOU have to STICK to the question I asked, all things being EQUAL what do I get other than less ammo, more recoil, and muzzle flash.

    Edited : I know what Dr Roberts would tell me. :D
     
  5. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    The old guy has arthritis and so now shoots 9mm, hardly a ringing endorsement for 9.
     
  6. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    You have delivered 80 more ft/lbs of energy into the target PLUS you have delivered 500 ft/lbs at a higher velocity, this makes a larger wound cavity PLUS produces more shock. The practical value of this is that the 357 Sig rounds with their greater instant energy dump and shock will end the fight sooner rather than later. Both rounds will wound or kill but the more powerful round will do it sooner. This is important considering that gun fights begin and end, win or lose in only a very few seconds.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  7. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    We can take a look at actual results;

    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/357-sig-whats-the-point/

    357sig 125 Gold Dot (from Glock 33) @ 1375 fps = 13.2 inches of penetration, .67 recovered diameter and 526 fpe.

    9mm 124+P Gold Dot (from G26) @ 1141 fps = 16.6 inches of penetration, .52 recovered diameter and 359 fpe.

    So right off the bat we can see the 357sig has an additional 234 fps of velocity yielding 167 extra fpe and 0.15 larger recovered diameter. Does the extra 167 fpe result in increased terminal ballistics? Not that can be demonstrated in any significant way. As I've mentioned, a trauma surgeon simply isn't going to see the difference between wounds based upon 167 fpe.

    How about the recovered diameter? The 357sig round in this test is 0.15 of an inch larger. Does that translate into a meaningful wounding mechanism? Well, in this case, larger is always better and 0.15 is an increase in size but again, a trauma surgeon isn't going to see the difference in the wound track in live tissue. What will be seen however is the extra 3.4 inches of penetration. That IS something that can be seen and measured and translates to more tissue being damaged by the 9mm. So the result is a wound track that is roughly 20% increased.

    Now, 13.2 inches of penetration is acceptable and above the minimum of 12 inches recognized in most ballistics testing. I would prefer an increase of 3.4 inches of penetration however over 167 increase in fpe or 0.15 inches of increase in recovered diameter.

    And this isn't considering the factors that the 9mm will have faster and more accurate follow up shots in X amount of time. Won't be as punishing on the long term durability of the pistol. And doesn't cost as much to train with.
     
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  8. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    This is an opinion but also a debunked piece of psuedo-science. Sorry, but it just doesn't happen that way in the real world. If it were a round proven to end a fight sooner than any other service caliber it would be in wide-spread use and not just a niche caliber being dropped by the few agencies that used it.
     
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  9. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Penetration is the result of bullet design more so than caliber.


    View: https://youtu.be/lK6KbA-HuZ8
     
  10. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    We can look at other comparable examples as well.

    357sig 125g HST Tactical LE @ 1387 fps for 18 inches of penetration and recovered diameter of .61.

    9mm 124+P HST @ 1168 fps for 18.3 inches of penetration and recovered diameter of .66.

    So although the 357sig is faster it achieved just slightly less than the 9mm in factors that are significant in terminal ballistics. So in this example, I'd say they're even within the margin of error. So why would I want to spend 2-3 times as much on the ammunition for a round that is harder on the pistol and puts less rounds on target within X amount of time?

    The answer, I wouldn't. That's why 357sig would be my absolute last choice in service calibers.
     
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  11. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 9mm, putting in work since 1902 !

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    Ok hear is the thing tho, I have never seen this larger wound channel.

    Now were not comparing apples to apples hear but between 6 people, 7 including myself we have shot in the neighborhood of 510 wild hogs with Service Calibers. A 9mm sorta looks like a 38 Super that sorta looks like a 357 Sig, that sorta looks like a 40 S&W in the wound track department. like I said they aren't people but we.cant test on people. :eek:

    The only time we seen any difference is with BIG Magnums, not 44 mag big but 454 Casule or 460 S&W and those have to be shot at either BIG hogs or oblique angles.

    I must be missing something.

    I ant starting a argument but this is what I have SEEN with my on eyes.

    3 times with a Hot 9mm load I cracked a liver and didn't hit the liver. Could have been something other than a fragment but 3 is not a lot to go on. The only other one that cracked a liver was 4 times with a 357 Sig and once with a 10mm that didn't hit the liver. livers dont expand so they can crack or get a fisher or something, I am not a Vet or Dr so that is what I call it.

    The main part of "Power" or "Shock" I have is there boxers that hit harder than these service calibers and yes sometimes a liver gets ruptured but there is a s**t pot full of boxers that don't get a liver ruptured. :dunno:
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  12. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 9mm, putting in work since 1902 !

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    Read your whole post but I picked this. :D

    Same sorta thing I have seen with all the wild hogs we have shot with pistols. (Service calibers)

    Shooting hogs is far from being a Surgeon but it is the only way I can see what happens for myself. Well we also shoot Gell, not the synthetic clear stuff, and I have a Flaker Box. The clear Gell seems to aid in penetration and screw with expansion just a bit.

    I am a very curious person and also sceptical. I like to see stuff with my own eyes and therefore I tend to go a touch overboard on looking information and testing stuff myself. The ADHD doesn't help this either. :(

    Hell I am looking at both sides, I just cant take some thing's. ;)

    I do understand this...
    Self Defense Calibers can and do fail
    Training is what we fall back on so it needs to be 1000% solid.
    Reliability, Accuracy, Penetration and Expansion in that order is what I believe in..
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  13. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    This simply means the faster 357 Sig expanded sooner making a larger wound cavity causing petals to fold back as a result and good penetration was achieved.
     
  14. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Actually, the 357sig made the smaller wound cavity. The 9mm had the larger recovered diameter round and slightly more depth.
     
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  15. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    You need to check out a few more 9 - 357 comparisons.
     
  16. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Either you didn’t watch the whole video or your bias is showing.

    What about the findings of Dr. Gary Roberts, going to discount him too?
    Google him...


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  17. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Here you go all 4 requirements. Keep in mind the bullet's recovered expansion is measured after it has expanded fully them peeled back as it traveled through the gel.

    A bullet can take 15 inches to fully expand or fully expand at 6 inches and then peel back as it completes it's penetration. The only value of checking a bullet after being shot into gel it to see if expansion had occurred at all.



    View: https://youtu.be/w1VNXQKL1uw
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  18. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Not interested in anyone who defies logic.
     
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  19. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Well, I'd be willing to bet that I've reviewed more than you including ballistics testing, operating room experience, interviews with gun shot recipients etc. And I continue to this day after 30 years of research. Which is why I state categorically that of the service calibers currently used, the 357sig is inferior to the others for a variety of reasons. Doesn't mean it isn't a viable round, but it is clearly inferior across the board to the others. I know that may challenge some cherished beliefs, but that is all they are...beliefs. The facts speak for themselves.
     
  20. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Thanks for your contribution and don't think it isn't appreciated.
     
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