When you see an airline pilot...........

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by WINGS, Jul 19, 2007.

  1. WINGS

    WINGS CLM

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    Great, another "over paid airline pilot" article. Do you know that when you see a pilot, he's not being paid?


    When you see a pilot going through the same security you go through, he's not being paid.

    When you see a pilot walking in the terminal, he's not being paid.

    When you see a pilot at the gate pulling up paper work, planning the flight, and conferring with the agent, he's not being paid.

    When you see a pilot walking around the aircraft doing a preflight inspection, he's not being paid.

    When you board the aircraft and look in the cockpit and see the pilots setting up the aircraft, they're not getting paid.

    When you land safely at your destination and walk off the aircraft and see the pilots shutting down the aircraft, they're not being paid.

    When you see a pilot waiting for a ride to a hotel for the night, he's not being paid.

    The only time the pilot of your aircraft is getting paid is when you DON"T see him... when he's locked behind the cockpit door as you push back from the gate. Every thing else he does until this point is for free. For no wages. Nothing!

    The average airline pilot is at work for 12- 14 hours per day, yet gets paid for less than 6 - 7 hours.

    The average airline pilot is away from home, at work, for 70+ hours a week, yet gets paid for only 15 to 18 hours per weeks work.

    Most pilots schedules have them working 15 days or more a month... that means they are not at home half the month.

    Holidays, weekends, birthdays, anniversaries, summer vacations.... not at home.

    A majority of pilots have 4 year college degrees, or more. Then they begin training as pilots.

    A large majority of Pilots have spent 8 years or more flying in the military, risking their lives and protecting your freedom for wages most of you would n't accept in the civilian world.

    Civilian trained pilots have spent $50,000 or more to acquire the training that qualifies them for a Regional Airline job, which pays a wage less than the poverty level in most western countries.

    Most pilots do not attain the required experience level to be hired by a major airline until they are well passed the age of 30. The average age of a new hire airline pilot is 32.

    Airline pilots are required to retire at the age of 60. This gives most of them less than 28 years to maximize their income and fund their pensions, hoping that greedy airline execs won't steal it.

    Airline pilots are subject to random drug and alcohol testing, any time they are at work. Fail it and they lose their job.

    Airline pilots are required to undergo rigorous re-training and certification every 6 to 9 months, at which time they could fail and lose their jobs, licenses and livelih ood.

    Airline pilots are required to submit to random government "Line checks" during which their license could be revoked and livelihood destroyed.

    Airline pilots are exposed to radiation levels far exceeding the normal safe radiation limits mandated by the FDA.

    Airline pilots are required to submit to a government medical examination every 6 months (Captains) and 12 months as First Officers. Year after year. Fail that, and their career is over.

    How many of you go to work where people try to kill you? How many of you have had your office turned into a cruise missile? How many of you work behind a bullet proof door?

    How many of you are responsible for the lives of 200- 300 people, with any small mistake in your performance resulting in the death of your customers (and yourselves), and the financial destruction of your company?

    How many of your jobs require you to fight your way through thunderstorms, rain, snow, ice and turbulence, day and night, year after year? No mistakes allowed? The excuse " I had a bad day at work" never accepted?

    Many pilots volunteer (on their own time and own dime) to be trained as Federal Flight Deck Officers, and carry weapons to defend their aircraft, crew and passengers. They maintain their proficiency and qualifications twice a year on their own time and money.

    How many of you go to work where you are searched, patted down and your personal items scrutinized by strangers, even though you can kill everyone in your place of work with your two bare hands?

    Airline pilot pay scales and hours worked are usually posted by absurdly overcompensated Airline Exec's who are waging a PR campaign against their Pilot Unions and trying to justify their own greedy bonus's and draconian wage and pension cuts. Cheap airline passengers just love this since they don't care if thei r airplane is flown by the lowest denominator, as long as they can fly for next to nothing. Of course if they don't get to their destination, their next of kin can sue....

    Pilots are sick and tired of seeing this stuff in the press and how aviation is never depicted accurately in movies and on television.
     
  2. Superfueler

    Superfueler Glockenplane

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    What about Per Diem?
     

  3. Cross-X

    Cross-X CLM

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    So we're to believe that pilots working for major airlines make a slave's wages? I don't think so!
     
  4. Superfueler

    Superfueler Glockenplane

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    Not slave wages, but alot less than they should. Commuter pilots are lucky to make $50k, and it takes a long time to get there. Starting pay is around $18k a year.
     
  5. k9medic

    k9medic

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    You should try being a helicopter pilot. none of the glory, all of the danger and the lowest pay in the aviation industry.
     
  6. WINGS

    WINGS CLM

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    Yeah, they get rich on the $2 an hour per diem. These days that bearly gets you supper at some of the overnight hotels.
     
  7. G19Tony

    G19Tony Sneet CLM

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    That may all be true. However, we are volunteers for this and are free to go and do something else. ;)
     
  8. AP

    AP

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  9. geoffinak

    geoffinak

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    True the love of aviation does push people to the dream, however the change in the pay and work standards have changed so rapidly in the last 5 or 6 years, mostly due to the Flight Crews and the Flight Attendants making concessions to the airlines when they were really in trouble and now that things have stabilized somewhat, the airlines are not raising the pay as they were supposed to. That has caught a lot of people in mid career and their duffed if you do and duffed if you don't. So the next time you sucking jet fuel in the cabin as number 14 for line up Just think who has control of your destiny and maybe 200 other lives. Is he a well trained pilot, who makes the money he should for the responsibility that he holds in his hand. There are few jobs that compare in the immediate human loss and economic loss of a mistake made because he is tired, has low blood sugar, as he did not have time to get a good breakfast and the meal of the month on the airlines, which he has to pay for, he just can't stomach it again. He is worried about his mortgage., kids and maybe his marriage. They are being replaced by video whiz kids who can pass a sim check with their eyes closed, but once in the air, their brain is 30 miles behind the airplane and their butt right on the nose. They have no situational awareness and it's down right frightening. So says a good friend for the largest commuter who had the 2nd highest seniority number in the organization, started at 18 and as such gave a lot of the IOE and Chief Pilot. He has since moved on to an Airline. Most people are oblivious and still think flying is easy, high paid job, that in fact the pilots are over paid. Well Billy Nintentdo will soon be the Captain at your controls. and unlike his video game he can't push restart when things start falling off the airplane and lights start flashing.
    So one day it will happen a mid air, a landing on top of another large jet, not just a small commuter as has already happened at LAX. Then the public will be made aware of the problems and the lack of rest, low pay and all the other perks that once made getting a 4 to 6 year degree and spending another 10 to 20 K for your Aviation Tickets. 10 years of working your way up through commuters that your lucky to have lived through. Then around 32 to 35 you go hired by a major and could make a ok living in the next 20 years. When at 60 you have to step down as Captain. Which will not change, as medical studies have found a large number of airline pilots die by age 65. Which is very curious as they under go physicals at 6 months intervals. Exposure to radiation? Who knows. I am not asking you to pity these men and women, just think of yourself when your strapped in and what kind of person do yo as a paying passenger want at the controls, a well paid, rested professional. Or someone filling a slot looking to get something better when it opens up and he is tired, under paid, overworked and hates the company he works for.. It's your ticket, unfortunately the clock is ticking to the next big one and were standing in line with our shoes in hand thinking that will solve the problem.
    Geoff
     
  10. geoffinak

    geoffinak

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    True the love of aviation does push people to the dream, however the change in the pay and work standards have changed so rapidly in the last 5 or 6 years, mostly due to the Flight Crews and the Flight Attendants making concessions to the airlines when they were really in trouble and now that things have stabilized somewhat, the airlines are not raising the pay as they were supposed to. That has caught a lot of people in mid career and their duffed if you do and duffed if you don't. So the next time you sucking jet fuel in the cabin as number 14 for line up Just think who has control of your destiny and maybe 200 other lives. Is he a well trained pilot, who makes the money he should for the responsibility that he holds in his hand. There are few jobs that compare in the immediate human loss and economic loss of a mistake made because he is tired, has low blood sugar, as he did not have time to get a good breakfast and the meal of the month on the airlines, which he has to pay for, he just can't stomach it again. He is worried about his mortgage., kids and maybe his marriage. They are being replaced by video whiz kids who can pass a sim check with their eyes closed, but once in the air, their brain is 30 miles behind the airplane and their butt right on the nose. They have no situational awareness and it's down right frightening. So says a good friend for the largest commuter who had the 2nd highest seniority number in the organization, started at 18 and as such gave a lot of the IOE and Chief Pilot. He has since moved on to an Airline. Most people are oblivious and still think flying is easy, high paid job, that in fact the pilots are over paid. Well Billy Nintentdo will soon be the Captain at your controls. and unlike his video game he can't push restart when things start falling off the airplane and lights start flashing.
    So one day it will happen a mid air, a landing on top of another large jet, not just a small commuter as has already happened at LAX. Then the public will be made aware of the problems and the lack of rest, low pay and all the other perks that once made getting a 4 to 6 year degree and spending another 10 to 20 K for your Aviation Tickets. 10 years of working your way up through commuters that your lucky to have lived through. Then around 32 to 35 you go hired by a major and could make a ok living in the next 20 years. When at 60 you have to step down as Captain. Which will not change, as medical studies have found a large number of airline pilots die by age 65. Which is very curious as they under go physicals at 6 months intervals. Exposure to radiation? Who knows. I am not asking you to pity these men and women, just think of yourself when your strapped in and what kind of person do yo as a paying passenger want at the controls, a well paid, rested professional. Or someone filling a slot looking to get something better when it opens up and he is tired, under paid, overworked and hates the company he works for.. It's your ticket, unfortunately the clock is ticking to the next big one and were standing in line with our shoes in hand thinking that will solve the problem.
    Geoff
     
  11. Juliet Lima

    Juliet Lima Hawaiian Guy

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    How about air traffic controllers?

    Their pay has been cut significantly recently. The entire aviation field is hurting. No money for decent wages because the airlines and the FAA are strapped financially.

    Just a thought. And yes, I agree with you. I want the most qualified and best paid pilot at the controls of the plane I'm on. I also want the best controllers guiding those planes along.
     
  12. geoffinak

    geoffinak

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    I actually did slip in a part about ATC and the excitement of the FAA that ATC all the ATC Center radars now are finally in color.....Yup living color and their excitied. I had to pull my ATC as it would take too much space, plus I knew someone would vector me to that topic.

    No doubt about it , ATC is getting the stick again and the system is in bad shape.
    Pay cuts, plus no pay raises in 15 years, no scheduling of vacations as you can be called in at anytime. The FAA calls this meeting the need of the situation. How do you schedule your vacation LA center went down probably a year or maybe longer now, why a vacuum tube blew out and they went dark from Vegas to the Mexican border to North of S. F. where SEA Center picks up. Only the heroics of the TRACON in So CAL one of the busiest airspace in the country and wide mix of traffic, from VFR to commuter, military and of course commercial operations from all over the world. That said.
    The airlines are flush with money, take N.W. a few years ago they were coming out of their slump after the voluntary wage cuts and the company just drove the company in the ground on purpose. It is advantageous for an airline to run at or near bankruptcy, that's why you see it all the time. The back bone of the ATC system is broke. I look at the avionics that are in even propeller driven aircraft and the all glass cockpits and then look at ATC equipment and it's sad as that is accidents waiting to happen.
    Sorry to overlook you guys as you see it takes up a lot of room on both. The government has the money, it just elects to spend it on it on other things in other areas. The plan to charge Biz Jets is another Bonehead idea. Now here is something we still make in this country at least some of them and they want to charge a Cessna X as much as a 747 to use the airport, give me break.
    Business Aviation employees a lot of people and most at a fairly descent pay ranges and brings a city in untold millions for the business activity they bring to the city the go to and operate in. So yes lets not forget everyone who is involved with the the safety of flight and for that matter everyone who is working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet, kids raised at day care and we wonder why crime is so high. Elect real people, not sound bites.
    All the best and hope the negations go well, although it looks like the govt... is really pulling a Reagan, now a Bush, My way or no way. Now their trying to stuff people into these positions again, with little or no supervision from seasoned veterans, as the real veteran line was cut during Reagan's back to work order and the ATC system never really recovered. I feel for you guys, 10 year fire at will and no real union, plus their going to privatize it,which means lower wages and lower quality. If the passengers had any idea what happened in a typical day. The trains could make a come back..I was reading on AV Web where the controllers are being pressured to not report certain incidents involving altitude restrictions and separation requirements. Not a good scene there.

    Geoff
     
  13. geoffinak

    geoffinak

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    I actually did slip in a part about ATC and the excitement of the FAA that at all the ATC Center radars now are finally in color.....Yup living color and their excited. I had to pull my ATC as it would take too much space, plus I knew someone would vector me to that topic.

    No doubt about it , ATC is getting the stick again and the system is in bad shape.
    Pay cuts, plus no pay raises in 15 years, no scheduling of vacations as you can be called in at anytime. The FAA calls this meeting the need of the situation. How do you schedule your vacation ? LA center went down probably a year or maybe longer now, why a vacuum tube blew out and they went dark from Vegas to the Mexican border to North of S. F. where SEA Center picks up. Only the heroics of the TRACON in So CAL one of the busiest airspace in the country and wide mix of traffic, from VFR to commuter, military and of course commercial operations from all over the world. BTW for those who do not know what a Vacuum Tube is, your not alone, took them 10 days to find one. That said, remember were in color.
    The airlines are flush with money, take N.W. a few years ago they were coming out of their slump after the voluntary wage cuts and the CEO just drove the company in the ground on purpose. It is advantageous for an airline to run at or near bankruptcy, at times, that's why you see it happen in this industry all the time.
    The back bone of the ATC system is broke. I look at the avionics that are in even propeller driven aircraft and the all glass cockpits and then look at ATC equipment and it's sad as that is accidents waiting to happen.
    Sorry to overlook you guys as you see it takes up a lot of room on both. The government has the money, it just elects to spend it on it on other things in other areas. The plan to charge Biz Jets is another Bonehead idea. Now here is something we still make in this country at least some of them and they want to charge a Cessna X as much as a 747 to use the airport, give me break.
    Business Aviation employees a lot of people and most at a fairly descent pay ranges and brings a city in untold millions for the business activity they bring to the city the go to and operate in. So yes lets not forget everyone who is involved with the the safety of flight and for that matter everyone who is working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet, kids raised at day care and we wonder why crime is so high. Elect real people, not sound bites.
    All the best and hope the negations go well, although it looks like the govt... is really pulling a Reagan, now a Bush, My way or no way or your out. Now their trying to stuff people into these positions again, with little or no supervision from seasoned veterans, as the real veteran line was cut during Reagan's back to work order and the ATC system never really recovered. I feel for you guys, 10 year fire at will and no real union, plus their going to try and privatize it, which means lower wages and even lower quality. If the passengers had any idea what happened in a typical day. The trains could make a come back..I was reading on AV Web where the controllers are being pressured to not report certain incidents involving altitude restrictions and separation requirements. Not a good scene there. Good luck to you, I respect the job you do but the pressure is evident. Never hesitate to ask us to help by changing whatever you need to keep things paced and safe. It's no problem, we have our jerks too but most realize we work together.

    Geoff
     
  14. geoffinak

    geoffinak

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    PAN PAN PAN

    Not sure why I am double posting, never had that issue, I tried to delete each one one but no joy
    Apologies
    Geoffrey
     
  15. Juliet Lima

    Juliet Lima Hawaiian Guy

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    I totally hear you man. I work with many controllers that are just jerks to pilots. I don't get why their that way. It takes more energy to be a jerk than to just provide the service we're paid to provide.

    Maybe I'll talk to you over the radio waves one day.

    Oakland ARTCC here!
     
  16. geoffinak

    geoffinak

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    Good quote more energy to be a jerk. I respect the job you guys do. It's like we are each working together not to give each one a bad day.
    Take Care Oakland
    Geoff
     
  17. g19lr45

    g19lr45

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    When controllers are jerks, I just don't help them out with anything. If they screw up crossing restrictions I tell them unable. Some controllers think they are in control of your airplane, when in fact all they are doing is giving you traffic advisories. The PIC is ultimately in command.

    For you controllers out there. Why do you guys give the name of a fix or VOR instead of the identifier? The name doesnt come up on the FMS unless you have the id. It just makes it harder cause we have to ask for the spelling!!
     
  18. WINGS

    WINGS CLM

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    That's why, when you get a controller on your jumpseat, you should point out things like that instead of BSing about what they are going to do at their destination.

    When you ride the jumpseat all of you ATC guys....Heads up and Pay attention!
     
  19. Tennessee Slim

    Tennessee Slim Señor Member CLM

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    I overheard a b-jet coming into BNAshville during a big bank and the controller gave him a “slow to xxx knots, cross yyy at or below zzz” and the pilot responded he couldn’t make the restriction. When ATC asked him if he didn’t have speed brakes, the pilot shot back, “Yeah, but those are for my mistakes, not yours
    :rofl:
     
  20. GlockPride

    GlockPride M&P

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    Hate to say, hate to say it...but in a few years it won't matter what the pilots make in salary b/c they'll only be there in the unlikely event that the computer has gone down or made a serious error. I don't like it or agree with it, but just look at the way the military is going-pilotless. Pretty soon there might not be any pilots coming out of the military thereby forcing the airlines to do the same. Computers already do most of the flying anyways.

    Just food for thought!