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When carrying can put you in a no win situation? (moved from GATE)

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Kage505, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. Kage505

    Kage505

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    First off this is my first post here, I decided to get more involved with the shooting community after I purchased my first glock (m19 3rd gen) for concealed carry. Anyway my question comes from the experiences of a friend who thankfully was able to deescalate the situation before anything happened. The situation is you are confronted by a big mean crazy possibly tweaking BG. The catch is he is completely unarmed except for his out of control temper. You are carrying your ccw of choice which brings us to the point of this post. If this guy rushes you and you present your weapon, issue a warning etc. can you legally fire? If you don't he takes your gun away and shoots you and we possibly have an active shooter on our hands, or even beats you to death. Even though I'm decently skilled at hand to hand I wouldn't want to engage in a fight because I have a responsibility to keep my weapon out of the hands of said bg. Also something might preclude me from retreating like a girlfriend/wife/child being with me. Personally, if I presented and that didn't stop him, I'm shooting, especially if someone I have a responsibility to protect is with me. What would you do? Would I be in serious trouble for shooting an "unarmed" man? I've looked everywhere for an answer but this seems to be a murky subject. Lets second guess ourselves now so we don't have to later.
     
  2. PrecisionRifleman

    PrecisionRifleman

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    Were you in fear for your life or would be for anyone with you? Sounds like you were afraid your firearm would possibly be taken away by a nutso? If you are legitimately in fear for your life then it is justified. You will still have to convince a jury either way. Were any life threatening comments made or anything to that degree?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012

  3. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    Learn what your state law says about the legal use of deadly force in self-defense. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but that's what's going to come into play.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  4. FireGuy

    FireGuy Into The Breach CLM

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    The previous poster gave the correct short answer for you question. The long answer depends on where you live. My advice is to find a class on concealed carry in your area.
     
  5. BobbyT

    BobbyT

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    The phrase to consider here is "disparity of force".

    "big mean crazy possibly tweaking BG" certainly fulfills that category, unless you're twice his size. If you're with women or children and he comes towards you (them), that seems pretty clear cut as well.
     
  6. Misty02

    Misty02

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    As others have stated, you need to know and understand your state’s law first. Some require retreat before engaging the BG. Often, if you’re not allowed to use deadly force (shooting the person), it is probable you are also not allowed to use the threat of deadly force (drawing on them). Read those statutes carefully! Which state are you in? Perhaps others in your state can chime in and further elaborate.

    We should all be as well versed in the law of our state as we possibly can. Being armed for the purpose of self-defense and defense of our loved ones is likely to be among the biggest/toughest choice we’ve made in our life; at least it was for me. Among the many risks we have consciously accepted is the possibility of ending up in prison for the remainder of life. It could happen, even if we do everything right.

    Do all your research into the laws now so know how far you can or cannot go. However, at the time you are faced with serious bodily harm or death, the only thing that should be present in your mind is the survival of your loved ones and yours. There are people worth risking the unimaginable for; that is the reason many of us carry.

    Allowing myself to enter a situation where I can be overpowered by a BG and they taking my weapon is definitely not within my plan of action.


    .
     
  7. SouthernBoyVA

    SouthernBoyVA

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    In my state, you needn't be in fear of your life. Serious bodily harm is sufficient for a deadly force response.
     
  8. SouthernBoyVA

    SouthernBoyVA

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    THIS !

    Absolutely dead on correct.
     
  9. HexHead

    HexHead

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    This.

    And presenting your gun to "scare him" can be considered brandishing. You could be the one to end up in jail and lose your permit.
     
  10. SouthernBoyVA

    SouthernBoyVA

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    That is true which is why that in the event you pull your firearm and the perp(s) take off running, you want to be the first to call 911 and report the incident so your story is the first one on record. Such a situation would not constitute brandishing were you to do this and received such a response by perp(s).
     
  11. PrecisionRifleman

    PrecisionRifleman

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    I'd consider that being in fear for your life. Like others said gotta know your state laws. Here in Texas you no longer have to retreat, and so long as you are in fear of serious bodily harm/fear for your life you are justified. The thing is your perception of being in the way of being seriously harmed better be convincing to a jury as well.
     
  12. Civilian sheep Dog

    Civilian sheep Dog

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    they just had a case wrap up where a guy and his gf were out at a few bars, fight breaks out guy rushes the guy with the gun, he pulls the gun and shoots the guy in the hand, back and stomach. (all caught on camara) long story short he was charged with very series charges but acquitted and not found guilty. As far as a civil suit Im not sure how thats working out. If you live in a state where you have the castle doctrine law then you dont have to try to show retreat and also you would be protected from a civil suit in this case. But if it wasnt for the video Im sure they would of hung this guy out to dry. I would suggest you carry a less lethal weapon like mase or stun gun to deploy before you go for the gun. Also even if you dont have to retreat you should try to anyway after all your in fear for your life. Also shooting someone cause you think they might take your gun after beating you up idk, that gonna be pretty tough to prove to a jury
     
  13. themiller

    themiller

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    I'm not skilled in hand to hand.
     
  14. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    There's a huge area between the time to talk and the time to shoot. You should have something to fill it.
     
  15. LApm9

    LApm9 Silver Member

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    Like: "Man I am REALLY sorry! Just let me get out of here and you will never see me again!"
     
  16. shnev

    shnev We The People

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    Oh, that's easy. Just have the throw down weapon handy that day. Problem solved.
     
  17. SouthernBoyVA

    SouthernBoyVA

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    Serious bodily harm includes injuries such as broken bones (the threat of), lacerations/cuts requiring sutures, disfiguring injuries, burns, and temporary unconsciousness to name some. Virginia is a "true man state" which means we are a "stand your ground state" which we have always been. The onus of the perception of the fear of serious bodily harm or worse favors the victim over the perpetrator. Still one never knows how a jury is going to rule.

    And as for standing your ground, I would advise finding an escape if possible before pulling your gun, not so much for potential liability issues but much more for the reason that you might lose the fight. Just because one has a gun on their person does not mean they are automatically going to win in a deadly fight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  18. dosei

    dosei

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    Know your State's laws. And, even more importantly, know your State's case laws and court rulings. If you draw a gun in a situation where deadly force is not appropriate, you have become the deadly aggressor and the other person is the one who can now legally use deadly force in self defence. Many people expouse the "in fear for my life" line like it is a free pass to use deadly force...it is not. One thing that I have found to true over the years...more often than not it is a persons mouth/attitude/habits/social circle that will put them in the "no win" situation, not the gun.

    Here are a few old but excellent videos on the Judicious Use of Deadly Force:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI&list=FLY5QIvpf1Pe8laWEDwZbyOg&index=52&feature=plpp_video"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [1] - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJIyxm2s_M&feature=autoplay&list=FLY5QIvpf1Pe8laWEDwZbyOg&lf=plpp_video&playnext=1"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [2] - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCRL9SN2QA&feature=BFa&list=FLY5QIvpf1Pe8laWEDwZbyOg&lf=plpp_video"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [3] - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJazmbDH7S8&feature=BFa&list=FLY5QIvpf1Pe8laWEDwZbyOg&lf=plpp_video"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [4] - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  19. katana8869

    katana8869 NativeFloridian

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    OC Spray.... get some and carry it as religiously as you do your CCW. Around here we have alot of belligerent drunks, belligerent panhandlers and well, just belligerent people in general. A drunk that wants to start a fist-fight is not what I consider a "lethal" threat, but I have no intention of rolling around on the ground with somebody while carrying a firearm if I can help it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  20. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

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    When you're more afraid of what the big guy in front of you on the street will do to you than you are of what the big guy behind you in prison will do to you then you pretty much have satisfied the requirements to utilize deadly force in most any state in the union. That must be a reasonable fear, not based on worst case ridiculous what-ifs.

    By all means, study the laws in your state regarding deadly force. But don't look for the first available legal opportunity to use deadly force, avoid the gray where possible. But don't wait for the last possible moment either, and be too late. There's a reasonable area in the middle to shoot for. So to speak.

    Randy
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012