I just bought an LCR and was checking around with what people are using for defense. I have a bunch of PDX-1 .38spl +P ammo that got good results with a single layer of denim and gel, bare gel and water jugs. I checkout Youtube and 2 guys have done gel tests with this round but they use either 2 or 4 layers of denim and got good penetration but no expansion. I did some more searching and found some actual incidents where the PDX-1 .38spl was used in a defensive shooting out of snub. Not only did it get over 12" of penetration, but it expanded to over .62 and stopped the threat quickly. Last time I checked, a pair of jeans is basically one layer of denim and a shirt is one layer of cotton. If someone wanted to test for jacket material or leather, why not use that on top of the gel instead of 4 layers of jean material? I don't think anyone wears 4 pairs of jeans nor do they wear 4 jean material shirts. Am I over thinking this or is there some reason 4 layers of denim seems like an impractical test for expansion and clogging of the HP cavity? If you want to test for defense in winter, use a beat up old jacket if you want to keep it as real as possible.