What, if any, gain of .357 Sig over .40 S&W

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by newglocker10mm, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. Teecher45

    Teecher45

    Messages:
    3,219
    Likes Received:
    1,314
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Actually, it’s very likely that everyone will shoot a lesser recoiling round better, and faster; given equal training on both.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  2. 0311INF

    0311INF

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    1,073
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    I'm not sure how I can provide statistics, if you're talking about real life shooting data. Even if I could provide such, that kind of data doesn't seem to be reliable for comparison purposes. No LEA issues Underwood .357 Sig, the data just isn't there anyway, AFAIK.
    However, the videos mentioned speak for themselves. That Underwood load offers a few things over other reputable handgun cartridge results...increased diameter and length of wound cavity, Goldilocks zone penetration. These are his results and his words, paraphrased.
     
    Railsplitter likes this.

  3. 0311INF

    0311INF

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    1,073
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    I'm not saying it's a magic cartridge, but that completely ignores increased permanent wound cavity sizes. That and large fissures in gel is something routinely found in .357 Sig results. Attempts are then made to explain that away by saying gel and tissue don't have the same elastic properties. Which is the exact opposite premise given in that video-that gel is a mere basis for comparison. It can't be had both ways.
     
    Railsplitter likes this.
  4. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 9mm, putting in work since 1902 !

    Messages:
    3,087
    Likes Received:
    4,726
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Location:
    Eastern N.C
  5. amd65

    amd65

    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Location:
    North Coast of Ohio
    I base my "feelings" on 40+ years of shooting things with 9mm, 38spl and 357magnun.
    I've carried 9mm myself since back in the days when most cops carried Model 10's and 158gn RNL. I chose the 9mm because my WWII vet Dad seemed to respect it, even while Col Cooper devoted his career to disparaging it.
    But, I don't consider it anything but "adequate".
    If I had to shoot somebody with a handgun, I would choose 357mag.
    Funny, I used to make fun of the cops and their 38's...
    Now, I feel pretty well armed with a Model 10 4" and good ammo.
    Still can't understand why a thread specifically about 357sig/40 s&w needs to be polluted by the 9mm cult.
     
    triggerjerk likes this.
  6. Teecher45

    Teecher45

    Messages:
    3,219
    Likes Received:
    1,314
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Yes, it does ignore increased wound cavity. It’s the difference between temporary and permanent because of the elastic quality of the human body and the relative slow speeds of service rounds.

    These guys have access to million dollar labs and probably every single documented civilian shooting in history. They then optimize their SD bullets based on that data.
    And they’re telling you there’s no significant difference between the service calibers.

    The data I’ve seen shows the .40 to perform better than the Sig round. It’s what I’m issued and, on most days, carry (G-27). I also have a G-45 that I carry on days that I wear a sweatshirt or jacket. I’m equally comfortable carrying either.
    Dr. Gary Roberts (google him if you don’t know him) has spent countless hours researching data and came to the conclusion, when seeing the data from the .357 Sig, of “What’s the point of this cartridge?”

    The point of the .357s was to try to get Sig into the Leo market, heavy. It failed and has been dumped by Leo agencies across the country with many more following suit in the near future. Federal has seen the light and has discontinued the production of their HST load.
    It’s on a downward spiral because it didn’t live up to the hype.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    AdamRodgers likes this.
  7. Teecher45

    Teecher45

    Messages:
    3,219
    Likes Received:
    1,314
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    I think a lot of us on here have a lot of experience shooting things. It’s just that some of us realize that experts with many more data points may just know more than us.
    It’s okay if you feel like the 9mm is just adequate. Even the experts will tell you all of the service calibers are just adequate.
    Handguns suck at stopping people, if given a choice, long guns, and shotguns are preferred.
    I can only speak for myself, and I’ve touted the .40 > than .357s in this thread. But I like to provide scientific data and expert testimonials just in case an unbiased person stumbles upon these threads looking for which caliber might best suit their needs.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    AdamRodgers likes this.
  8. 0311INF

    0311INF

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    1,073
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    I think I'll bow out of the thread at this point, but thanks everyone, for all the fun.
     
  9. unit1069

    unit1069

    Messages:
    9,901
    Likes Received:
    2,107
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Location:
    So. Central US
    George, how do you define "power"?
     
  10. LostinTexas

    LostinTexas Exploring Alternate Routes

    Messages:
    5,114
    Likes Received:
    8,710
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Location:
    East Texas
    The 357 Sig is a proven man stopper. Many departments have used it with great success. Texas Department of Public Safety being one of them. I have no idea what they are going to, if they are changing, or if any change is mandatory. Not sure why some believe it is going away, but I figure a lot of folks here know more than me.
    Here is what I would lose.
    Diversity. I prefer 165 grain ammo. It seems to be a fine compromise between weight and velocity. 155 gr is a tried and road tested. It seems to have a more unpleasant recoil pulse to me, and was touted as "The" 40 S&W round for a while by many. I was never too much a fan. 180 gr seems to be the anointed round. It doesn't flip my switch, and seems to be a little short on the penetration in testing. It seems to perform well enough in life though. All these perform well depending on the ammo, in testing and have on the streets.
    200 Gr Hard Cast has saved me from the bacon a time or two. Charging hogs are not something one wants to see, but better to see it than not.
    If one loads, then the sky is the limit. Load it up, load it down, tune your gun, have fun.
    I have no illusions of defeating windshields, door panels, or sheetrock on any basis, much less a regular one. LEO can have those issues, but the average keyboard lunatic won't likely have to. I prefer a bonded bullet for several reasons, so all the above is pretty well covered if it were to come up.
    All this along with I'm already set up in the caliber is why I never bothered to peruse the change. I'm not one of these internet "experts" that people reference and don't know who most of them are, but a career of plugging the holes made by these things, has helped my choice. The belief that some are better than others is absolutely true. Are they better enough? Well it depends on the comparison. Is this "Just as good" as that? That depends as well.
    See Ya
     
    pAZ Ron and Railsplitter like this.
  11. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    92
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Location:
    San Diego, G23-3, limited to Gen 3. Don't ask.
    LOL! Try shooting some MaxxTech in .40. You're obviously shooting the wrong kind of ammo!!! I've had numerous failures with the MaxxTech and there's even a thread here on how poorly it feeds. Failures to feed and some stove pipes. It's really good for practice of failure drills, if of any consolation!

    Sent from my SM-J337V using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
    Teecher45 and Railsplitter like this.
  12. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    6,464
    Likes Received:
    4,765
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014

    Considering that there are several different types and brands of gel each one having it's own performance characteristics it is easy to cherry pick tests that show a particular caliber or round performing well. But what doesn't change is the simple fact that the more power put in the target the greater effect it will have on the target in one way or another. To note that this happens but somehow it doesn't effect ammo performance defies logical thought.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  13. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    6,464
    Likes Received:
    4,765
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Exactly, not to heavy not to light the 155 and 165gr weights are my .40 SD loads. I personally prefer the 155gr weight and still have 5 boxes of Speer 155gr GDs. Speer stopped making these a few years ago due to the heavy for caliber craze.
     
  14. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    92
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Location:
    San Diego, G23-3, limited to Gen 3. Don't ask.
    357 Sig round by Underwood simply has more 'punch' than just about any of the other rounds. Double it and you are at 5.56 energy.

    I'll take more than 600 foot-pounds energy of Underwood over anything less in .40.

    Sent from my SM-J337V using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
    Railsplitter likes this.
  15. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

    Messages:
    6,464
    Likes Received:
    4,765
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    I am seriously wandering why the moderators are letting this trolling continue.
     
  16. Teecher45

    Teecher45

    Messages:
    3,219
    Likes Received:
    1,314
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Oh, that’s easy, imo.
    The “9mm cult” are providing data, scientific research, and expert testimonials.
    The “magic bullet cult” are providing feelings, ie, it’s bigger/faster, whatever, it’s got to be better!

    Except, in the real world, it really just isn’t...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    TacticalDesire and AdamRodgers like this.
  17. amd65

    amd65

    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Location:
    North Coast of Ohio
    Off topic, again
    I come into this thread because I like 40, and toy with the idea of getting a sig barrel.
    Please stop derailing it.
     
  18. user1

    user1 Millennium Member

    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    24
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 1999
    Location:
    Houston, TX - USA
    Original Poster:
    Your *actual question is about the "differences" and/or "benefits" between the .357 sig and the .40 cal Rounds! (See Your comments in OP#1) Forget about the barrels, its the Round that counts...!
    ...................................................................................................................
     
  19. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers 9mm, putting in work since 1902 !

    Messages:
    3,087
    Likes Received:
    4,726
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Location:
    Eastern N.C
    What is it Dr Roberts said,,, "Facts matter, Feelings lie". or something similar to that.

    I wish for 5 years the major ammo manufacturers would quit putting Velocity and ME on there boxes and start putting a 4 layer Denim shot, with expansion & penetration on the boxes, all shot by Dr Roberts, cause that is what I am interested in.

    I don't give one big damn what the next person shoots, it ant my business but good God, thinking a couple hundred FPS and 150 more FPE is gonna turn someone inside out is a touch far fetched.

    Edited to add : That 4 layer denim shot thing I was yacking about would only make since for Duty or Self Defense Calibers. Would not make much sense for me to worry about what my 41,44, 454, 460, 480, & 500's will do in a 4 layer denim shot, 90% of these I shoot hard cast out of.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
    Teecher45 likes this.
  20. newglocker10mm

    newglocker10mm Texas Born & Bred

    Messages:
    2,628
    Likes Received:
    5,272
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Location:
    Texas, Oklahoma and anywhere with Oil!
    The question was are there any quantifiable benefits to the 357 Sig over the 40 S&W round. The barrel is mentioned because to change the caliber from one to the other in a Sig P series DA/SA all that is required is a barrel swap. Thought that was easily understood.