GlockTalk Forum banner

1 - 20 of 158 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,156 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I spent about an hour today in the reloading dept. of our local range, and posed the same question to the gents working the counter. They really couldn't answer the question. The only thing that was offered that made sense, was that a large supply of Winchester primers were currently going to the military (as they should).

I did a search on this subject, and didn't really find much useful information. What has really caused the current primer shortage, and how long will it last? Politics? Military supply? Why and what? :steamed:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,997 Posts
You would think that the ammo makers would realize that demand isn't going to go down anytime soon and start expanding to meet the demand. I guess they decided that making 3x more on one box of ammo was better than expanding and selling for a lower price. :dunno:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,762 Posts
It is very difficult to find facts to really explain this matter. I would venture a guess though. My guess is that most folks realize that the really critical component of ammo is the primer. Bullets can be cast. Powder can be manufactured w/out much difficulty. It is the primer that is most difficult to clone. With the general distrust of the current administration is follows that concerned citizens might well have stepped up purchases of primers to insure the ability to continue reloading ammo. I know it is a simplistic explanation but it is all I have to offer.
Best, Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
638 Posts
Production has not increased by the companies. Ammo is currently purchased thru 2020 for overseas. Since production isn't kicking in any faster and people are hoarding you get high prices + low quantities. Supply and demand. Demand is higher now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: orangejeep06

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,369 Posts
Basically, there has been a two-pronged drain on primer supplies for the reloading market.

The first driving force has been the huge demand for loaded ammunition through 2008 and continuing into 2009. The large primer manufacturers like ATK (which would include Federal and CCI), Winchester, and Remington are directing the majority of their primers into loaded ammunition. Ammunition sales are going through the roof as individuals stock up because of political concerns. The huge consumer demand for ammo is in addition to the demand from law enforcement agencies and our military to re-supply their own inventories. I know that smaller ammunition manufacturers have been impacted drastically by the primer shortage since their demands are higher than normal for primers that they have to obtain through Federal, CCI, Winchester, Remington, etc. Many of these smaller manufacturers have had to go to other sources to get quality primers. Because of this situation, some of them cannot keep up with their own ammunition production. Unfortunately, these smaller ammo makers can’t control their own destiny since they don’t have the capacity or tooling to make primers.

I mentioned that there were two factors impacting primer availability; the first factor is creating the second one. Since ammo demand has consumed more of the primer supply than normal, the quantity of primers on the shelf has declined at the box stores, the reloading companies (like Sinclair), and the smaller gun shops. With the fast communication via the internet, the word spreads quickly and the result has been consumers stockpiling and hoarding primers. Individuals are buying and keeping more primers in their own personal inventories and this has prevented some reloaders from having any primers at all. We normally see people buying 1,000 or maybe 5,000 primers at a time, now we are seeing customers buying 25,000 at a time.

http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2009/06/primer-shortage-to-continue.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
797 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
467 Posts
One other contributing factor is the vast number of new shooters out there. With the flurry of pistols and rifles purchased just prior and just after the election, there were a LOT of new gun owners out there. These new gun owners also want to shoot, and may find it enjoyable so go shoot some more, so buy ammo. Combine these new shooters ammo needs with that of the military and that of the people stocking up and the primer manufacturers have had a difficult time keeping up to fill the orders for ammunition. There has not been much capacity left over for components for reloaders.

It would not seem prudent from a business sense to retool for more capacity when the demand may be transitiory. I'm betting that three things will happen; the new gun crowd will get over the initial excitement of purchasing a weapon and shoot less, the gatherers will run out of room for storage of ammo, (or the Visa bill comes due), and off-shore sources will fill the need for greater ammo capacity (at a reduced price compared to US manufacturers). It's already happening, stores where there were NO reloading components 6 months ago have normal powder/bullet/primer stocks, although the price is higher than in the past.

Which is just what the others were saying, I need to type faster ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,274 Posts
I did not have any problems buying tens of thousands of primers around 2006, had the money, realized I was low, so I bought. I had last bought a bunch when I worked at a gunshop I quit in '92, and had bought very few since then, less than 5k for sure. The short answer is the election. People were scared and started hoarding. This is the third time I have seen this, and by far the worst. The first time was in 89, I think when george the 1st started the 1st assault weapons ban. That was the one that said no bayonet lugs/ flashiders etc, primarily on foreign guns. This is when HK-91s, Steyer AUGs(one of my favorites), Steyer FALs, Hungarian AKs(Beautiful blond stocks, beech I think) Uzis, the Chinese AKs, Norincos and MAK 90s, were arbitrarily banned, it was nuts. The craziest thing was the guy I worked for had really high prices(but did have a lot of inventory) and had a chance to gouge, and we had all of these guns in stock. The FAL was priced at 1800 before(a Colt AR-15-A2 was 850$ at the time) and he sold the FAL after the rush started for only 2000$, some FALs elsewhere sold for as much as 3k$ Of all the Steyer AUG has held its value the best. We had about a month or two delay to get primers, but we had enough on hand to last until we got more in.

The second time was when wild bill clinton was elected, then it seemed like it took about 6-7 months or less for things to get normal, though the price was never the same again, before clinton you cold get a sleeve for 10-12 $ or so.

I think with how the dems did so well in 08 really scared people and everything gun almost flew off the shelves. I also seem to recall an explosion somewhere, maybe Remington, I dont know. So I am guessing the war is part of it, it is not the most substantial part. After all I am seeing all sorts of Lake City ammo being sold , .556s, 7.62x51, now even 50 BMG. I thought about selling some of mine when an idiot hit my motorcycle and his insurance company screwed me, but I held on to them. (I got hit at a light by a car going 35mph +, not my fault) Around here the first primers hit the shelves about a month ago, CCI small rifle mag. 40+$ a thousand. About the only ones that have been consistently had around her are 209 shotgun, and 50 BMG, which I did buy a sleeve of those, not knowing when more would be in , and of all, I was shortest on those. I dont think the gunshop ever ran out of those, but not hard to see why I guess.

I hope things get back to normal by the end of the year, I have no reason to think it will be sooner, just a guess. It seems that when they come in somewhere they are gone quickly, and when people think they have enough, then stores will have them.

The way dems seem to be jumping ship, if the republicans get some seats back, then that would probably go a long way in easing peoples minds, maybe. A guess from a former gun shop worker, and a Political Scientist/Historian by education and 30 year reloader.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
483 Posts
Hopefully, in the politics area folks will see that the Dems will not venture into any more gun ban or ammo areas. Since 1994 and the Slickmeister's assault weapon ban debacle cost alot of Dems their "jobs".
After Nov. of this year there should be new and friendlier residents to us under the dome in DC. Maybe then, people will quit hoarding components and things will be more normal again.
I remember back in Nov. of 2008, ARs and AKs were flying off the shelves. Now and for some time now, they are back and at decent prices.
I hope this is just temporary, but who knows anymore. Like this recession that drags on and on, "We ain't in Kansas anymore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
The extreme high prices are a product of retailers. Some saw the opportunity to make money and raising their prices kept stock on the shelf longer. The gunshop where I buy primers and powder kept his prices the same about 10% above is wholesale. He also had great suppliers because of the volume his shop does so when they got stock to distribute he got first dibs because he stocked and moved a lot of product to begin with. He also didn't tick off his customer by charging $50+ per k during the height of the shortage when he manged to get some primer in stock.
Matter of fact the only primers I saw in there that topped the $40 mark are the benchrest primers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,977 Posts
Basically, there has been a two-pronged drain on primer supplies for the reloading market.

The first driving force has been the huge demand for loaded ammunition through 2008 and continuing into 2009. The large primer manufacturers like ATK (which would include Federal and CCI), Winchester, and Remington are directing the majority of their primers into loaded ammunition. Ammunition sales are going through the roof as individuals stock up because of political concerns. The huge consumer demand for ammo is in addition to the demand from law enforcement agencies and our military to re-supply their own inventories. I know that smaller ammunition manufacturers have been impacted drastically by the primer shortage since their demands are higher than normal for primers that they have to obtain through Federal, CCI, Winchester, Remington, etc. Many of these smaller manufacturers have had to go to other sources to get quality primers. Because of this situation, some of them cannot keep up with their own ammunition production. Unfortunately, these smaller ammo makers can’t control their own destiny since they don’t have the capacity or tooling to make primers.

I mentioned that there were two factors impacting primer availability; the first factor is creating the second one. Since ammo demand has consumed more of the primer supply than normal, the quantity of primers on the shelf has declined at the box stores, the reloading companies (like Sinclair), and the smaller gun shops. With the fast communication via the internet, the word spreads quickly and the result has been consumers stockpiling and hoarding primers. Individuals are buying and keeping more primers in their own personal inventories and this has prevented some reloaders from having any primers at all. We normally see people buying 1,000 or maybe 5,000 primers at a time, now we are seeing customers buying 25,000 at a time.

http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2009/06/primer-shortage-to-continue.html
I agree w/ this... most of the problem has been political.

This administration scared a lot of gun owners. I dont know if its the fact Barak was a Chicago liberal, or what. Given Chicago's well known, very very strict gun control, this fear was probably justified.

I think what happened, Barak got in office, and a lot of new people started buying guns, and people who already had guns, were buying more. Then of course, everybody was buying ammo, and shortages started popping up, which resulted in hoarding. Then folks thought "I'll just get into reloading".... I went to a big gun show in Feb/March 08, and you would not believe the number of people I saw carrying around Rock Chuckers. I'm sure this phenom wasn't unique to Indy. This of course, caused a heavy demand for components, which were already getting gulped up as ammo manufacturers tried to keep up w/ demand for manufactured ammo. Then you have reloaders who normally bought 5-10k primers at a time, maybe buying 25k, not to mention the people who saw it coming, and hoarded them to try and sell them for huge profits on gunbroker.

It'll die down... eventually. :) I do believe the day of $24 primers is over, simply because the companies know we'll pay it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
317 Posts
An old commodity trader once said, "High prices cure shortages." He also said, "Pigs don't eat $4 corn." The local gun range has primers on the shelf. Cabela's has primers on the shelf.
 

·
Bustin Caps
Joined
·
6,927 Posts
OBAMA !!!!! Pure and simple

When he got elected, gun sales (of all kinds) went through the roof. Ammo started being hoarded... there were RECORD numbers of people applying for their CCW (that's when I got mine). It was in papers EVERYWHERE, you didn't see it ?? Before he got elected, you could walk into Walmart pretty much at any time and pick up the ammo you needed if going to the range. Now? Pfffftt.

For reloaders... there are plenty of bullet makers, there's lots of powder / brass around... but primers is the "weak" spot of the supply system. And I think lots of reloaders starting hoarding as well. The supply side just wasn't ready for that.

Sorry... but for someone to ask this question... a bit clueless / naive in my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,156 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I did not have any problems buying tens of thousands of primers around 2006, had the money, realized I was low, so I bought. I had last bought a bunch when I worked at a gunshop I quit in '92, and had bought very few since then, less than 5k for sure. The short answer is the election. People were scared and started hoarding. This is the third time I have seen this, and by far the worst. The first time was in 89, I think when george the 1st started the 1st assault weapons ban. That was the one that said no bayonet lugs/ flashiders etc, primarily on foreign guns. This is when HK-91s, Steyer AUGs(one of my favorites), Steyer FALs, Hungarian AKs(Beautiful blond stocks, beech I think) Uzis, the Chinese AKs, Norincos and MAK 90s, were arbitrarily banned, it was nuts. The craziest thing was the guy I worked for had really high prices(but did have a lot of inventory) and had a chance to gouge, and we had all of these guns in stock. The FAL was priced at 1800 before(a Colt AR-15-A2 was 850$ at the time) and he sold the FAL after the rush started for only 2000$, some FALs elsewhere sold for as much as 3k$ Of all the Steyer AUG has held its value the best. We had about a month or two delay to get primers, but we had enough on hand to last until we got more in.

The second time was when wild bill clinton was elected, then it seemed like it took about 6-7 months or less for things to get normal, though the price was never the same again, before clinton you cold get a sleeve for 10-12 $ or so.

I think with how the dems did so well in 08 really scared people and everything gun almost flew off the shelves. I also seem to recall an explosion somewhere, maybe Remington, I dont know. So I am guessing the war is part of it, it is not the most substantial part. After all I am seeing all sorts of Lake City ammo being sold , .556s, 7.62x51, now even 50 BMG. I thought about selling some of mine when an idiot hit my motorcycle and his insurance company screwed me, but I held on to them. (I got hit at a light by a car going 35mph +, not my fault) Around here the first primers hit the shelves about a month ago, CCI small rifle mag. 40+$ a thousand. About the only ones that have been consistently had around her are 209 shotgun, and 50 BMG, which I did buy a sleeve of those, not knowing when more would be in , and of all, I was shortest on those. I dont think the gunshop ever ran out of those, but not hard to see why I guess.

I hope things get back to normal by the end of the year, I have no reason to think it will be sooner, just a guess. It seems that when they come in somewhere they are gone quickly, and when people think they have enough, then stores will have them.

The way dems seem to be jumping ship, if the republicans get some seats back, then that would probably go a long way in easing peoples minds, maybe. A guess from a former gun shop worker, and a Political Scientist/Historian by education and 30 year reloader.
Several awesome replies, guys. This has just been amazing to watch the shortage unfold. What really upsets me are the people that put Obama-types in office and later panic when the result is so negative! WHEN ARE VOTERS GOING TO RECOGNIZE THAT DEMS AND LIBS ARE RATTLESNAKES? DEEP DOWN SOME VOTERS KNOW THEY'RE POISONOUS, BUT THEY ELECT THEM ANYWAY!

On the side of the issue that isn't political, I've noticed that Wolf primers are available right now in respectable quantities. I've never shot them, and quality would be my concern with them. My G21 & G30 like Federal 150's. I used to shoot Winchester exclusively before purchasing my Glocks. Neither of my Glocks liked my beloved Winchester primers, however. I had too many failures to fire with them, so I switched to the Federal 150's and never experienced another problem. My local gun range has Federal 150 Match right now, so I purchased 2k at $38.00 plus tax per thousand. OUCH! :steamed:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,156 Posts
Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
OBAMA !!!!! Pure and simple

When he got elected, gun sales (of all kinds) went through the roof. Ammo started being hoarded... there were RECORD numbers of people applying for their CCW (that's when I got mine). It was in papers EVERYWHERE, you didn't see it ?? Before he got elected, you could walk into Walmart pretty much at any time and pick up the ammo you needed if going to the range. Now? Pfffftt.

For reloaders... there are plenty of bullet makers, there's lots of powder / brass around... but primers is the "weak" spot of the supply system. And I think lots of reloaders starting hoarding as well. The supply side just wasn't ready for that.

Sorry... but for someone to ask this question... a bit clueless / naive in my opinion.
Naive? Clueless? From my initial question, you don't think I already understood the basic simplicity of your response? You don't think I realize the "change" we've experienced since Obama took office? Okay, that's fine.

Ron59, this message board is fun and relaxing for me; I don't know about you. I also try to be kind and considerate to everyone. Period. I don't care how many threads are redundant in nature, for me, this is fun time. If you'll notice too, out of thousands of threads that are started by people like myself, we're just interested in interaction with other firearms enthusiasts. It doesn't matter if I already have most of the answer to my question, I just enjoy the perspective that others have to offer in response. You're not going to make many friends here by labeling them as naive and clueless. You might give that a little thought, but I hope you have a blessed day regardless.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
481 Posts
Hey

Ya'll be careful!! Or you will end up like me. If you dont go with the flow here some ******* will come along and get you points in your jacket.
A shame ya cant speak your mind here but keeping it tech is a good thing.

BTW I been Good, How do I get them points off?????
 
  • Like
Reactions: 540mope

·
NRA Patron Life Member
Joined
·
13,416 Posts
Several reasons for the primer (and bullet) shortages.

1. The war. (And I have NO problem with this.)
We, as a country MUST supply our fighting men and women with the tools they need to do their jobs.
IF asked (and if I were certain it would make it to them), I'd personally send several cases of ammo to them. (All of it, if it were needed, btw.)
What doesn't make sense, is Federal (ATK) recently let people go, when ammo and component 'requests' are at an all-time high! :dunno:

2. Political 'climate'.
While I saw the writing on the wall, before "THE" election, I didn't take my own advice and buy a bunch or 'hoard' a bunch of components. (Call it lazy. I figured that I had some time before supply got short. Boy!! Was I WRONG!)
Anyone remember Sen. Daniel Patrick Monyihan (sp??) from NY? He made the statement (paraphrasing, here) that "The 2A guaranteed the Right to Keep & Bear Arms, but, there's NO 'Right' to own ammunition. Let them have their guns. We'll tax ammo out of existence. 500% tax. More." (Something to that effect.)

3. Fear and new reloaders.
Ammo shortages (various popular calibers) are in short supply, so, the new numbers of reloaders buying (and trying to buy) have cut down on the supply, because of demand.
All of these new shooters/reloaders are afraid that they'll not 'get their share' of ammo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
938 Posts
The shortage was created by the manufacturers to raise prices. Period!! When you hold product off the market the demand increases and so the price goes up. There is no reason why Wolf had a 25% price increase last year other than demand and greed. Throughout this whole primer scam every gun show I have gone to has had primers on the table.
 
1 - 20 of 158 Posts
Top