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Was there a second variation of the gen 1 G19?

Discussion in 'Glock Collector's Club' started by Marcus99, Nov 13, 2017 at 9:45 PM.

  1. Marcus99

    Marcus99

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    This is a somewhat longish post. I'm trying to accurately describe something which as far as I know hasn't yet been discussed in the collector's subforum.

    I was recently taking a closer look at some of my old Glock materials when I noticed what appeared to be a second rarer variation of the already incredibly rare 1st generation G19. This was on the back of my March 1988 (Form US004-03/08) factory manual. It was late that evening so I put the manual away and didn't think of it again until I saw the ongoing thread in the collector's club subforum pertaining to old Glock printed materials.

    I am away therefore don't have the manual nearby at this moment so I turned to finding listings on ebay and pictures on google of March 1988 Glock manuals. Looking at photos of the front and back covers of these manuals (also indicated as Form US004-03/08) I noticed several interesting things which differ from my manual:

    • Although the form ID is identical to mine, a 2nd gen G17 is featured on the front.
    • Again, although the form ID is identical to mine, the rear cover features all 2nd gen Glocks.
    See this cached snapshot of ebay listings of three separate March 1988 (Form US004-03/08) manuals. They are about ten listings down - https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XtNPF4X9SU0J:https://www.ebay.com/sch/GLOCK-Gun-Manuals/106973/bn_1969209/i.html?_fsrp=1+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    I thought I must've been mistaken regarding what I had seen on my manual, but fortunately I still have the email from the seller that sold me my March 1988 manual which included several pictures. I've attached them below.

    You'll notice several things -

    • The front cover displays a 1st gen G17. This is despite the fact that my manual has the same form ID code as the others linked above which differ.
    • The rear displays a 1st gen G17, 17L and 19.
    • The really interesting part is that the 1st gen G19 on the rear cover which is in the 1st gen pebble finish texture does not appear to be made from a cut down G17 frame.
    I cannot recall such a 1st gen G19 having been discussed here previously, not have I ever seen another photo of one. I also have been unable to find another picture of a March 1988, Form US004-03/08 manual such as mine. I know the quality of the pics isn't great, once I get home I'll scan in higher resolution images if anyone is interested.

    Can anyone shed light on this? Is this some ultra-rare 1st gen G19 variation that Glock intended to put into production? Why else feature it on a factory manual?

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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 9:53 PM
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  2. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    Man what a great observation.

    I have several 88 manuals.

    In the pics below you can see photos of both types of FORM US004-03/88 manuals. (Who knew that there were two types of manuals w/the exact same number??).

    Indeed, while there is a Gen 2 19 on the back of one, there appears to be a Gen 1 19 on the back of the other. The SN of that gun is SN: AN112 which does appear to have a pebble frame that does not look like a cut down 17 frame on first glance. My gun is actually a later production gun than that one AN517 and clearly has a cut down 17 frame.

    I don't know what to make if it. I've been told by many collectors, Stanley the President of the Glock Collector Assn, Ed at Glock and others that all Gen 1 19s are cut down 17 frames.

    While the AN prefix would certainly indicate a Gen 1 19 I can't see the front or back of the frame. Perhaps it's possible that the gun in the photo is a Gen 1 19 upper assy w/a Gen 2 frame? Being AN112 it was one of the first Gen 1 19s made. It would not make any sense that they had the molds for a Gen 1 19 frame from which they made the very first Gen 1 19s only to cut down 17 frames for the rest.

    Very interesting point. Very keen observation. Anyone else have any thoughts?

    IMG_20171113_221800909.jpg IMG_20171113_221810080.jpg IMG_20171113_221827839.jpg View attachment 363370

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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 10:39 PM
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  3. Marcus99

    Marcus99

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    Indeed its strange. What I thought is that AN112 (and others like it, if they exist at all) might've been a more refined version of the 1st gen G19 that Glock intended to put into production, therefore it's placement on the March 1988 manual. But what doesn't make sense is what you've mentioned in that the S/N of the more refined version is about 400 units EARLIER than the S/N of a less refined version such as yours Ron. As far as you know do the other cutdown 1st gen G19s bare S/N's very close to yours?

    I wonder how many of these unique March 1988 manuals exist or made it out of the factory, not to mention how many of the more refined 1st gen G19s might exist.
     
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  4. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    Every single AN and DN Gen 1 19 that I've ever seen a photo of - Smokies, the Cody guns, all of the K.S. ABC guns, etc have been cut down 17 frames.

    I've been told by many as noted that all Gen 1 19s were cut down 17 frames and that they were only made during a 3 month period until the Gen 2s came out.

    I can't imagine that they had Gen 1 19 frame molds yet most yet they used cut down 17 frames for nearly all of the Gen 1 19s. Also, as noted, mine is later than that one.

    Just don't know. Really great observation. I'll call Stan tomorrow to discuss.
     
  5. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    I just checked and the gun on the magazine that you just told us about is also a cut down 17 frame.

    Just looked at pics of the Cody guns again. Indeed, both the AN312 and the DN040 Gen 1 19s are on cut down 17 frames.

    Here is the Gen 1 19 ad that I was referring to. Again, we see a cut down 17 in Glock's own ad.

    (Man, I want an original of this ad!)

    DSCN4183c.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 11:07 PM
  6. Marcus99

    Marcus99

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    Please let us know what you uncover! Comparing the clearer photo that you took of AN112 to a right side photo of my early gen 2 G19 I am nearly positive that AN112 is not on a gen 2 frame - the Glock, Inc. Smyrna, GA stamping is situated differently, the U.S. Patent stamping is situated differently, the bottom trim of the pebble texture on the grip appears rougher than the bottom of the texture on a gen 2, plus the S/N is way too early to be a gen 2. However, on this final point, perhaps AN112 is indeed a refined later version of the 1st gen G19 that was manufactured using a reserved S/N. I believe Glock reserved serial numbers for their cutaway gen 2 G19s, for example.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 11:23 PM
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  7. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    I agree that upon close examination it's not a Gen 2 frame. I compared my Gen 1 to an early Gen 2 that I have and the gun on the catalog is not a Gen 2.

    I just found the post w/Jfapunker's gun from his grandfather the gun writer and it's also a cut down 17.

    I've never seen nor heard of non-cut down Gen 1 19 but it does look like one. I can't read the barrel date code would be interesting to know.

    I'll ask Stanley what he knows. He knows a LOT about the early Glocks.

    View attachment 363389 View attachment 363389

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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 11:31 PM
  8. Marcus99

    Marcus99

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    Well Ron, it sounds like you have another gen 1 G19 that you'll need to hunt down to add to your already amazing gen 1 collection!
     
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  9. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    That could be a tall order being that I know of none of these that exist - anywhere. I'll definitely make some calls tomorrow. I'll discuss w/Stanley and some others with great knowledge of Gen 1 19.

    I was thinking that I have to find a DN gun. Problem is that Gen 1 19 collecting turns out to be an extremely expensive hobby :)

    Perhaps some other GT members can shed some light on this.

    I PM'd Smokie to see if he knows anything more about them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017 at 11:55 PM
  10. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    Hi Marcus,

    Just to clarify my earlier post, AN is definitely way too early to be a Gen 2 just as you note.. My initial thinking was that perhaps they simply used a non-matching frame to the slide/barrel just to get the photo for some reason - the frame SN can't be seen.

    As noted though upon close examination, as u note, the gun on the catalog is definitely not a Gen 2 frame.

    It's especially odd given the early AN serial number being that all later guns - including the DN prefix ones which are later than any AN guns - are cut down 17 frames. At least all DN guns that I've seen.

    Really interesting. I'll let u know what the guys tell me tomorrow.
     
  11. 58sniper

    58sniper Silver Member

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    Hey now - some of us are still trying to find our first Gen 1 G19. Leave some for the rest of us!
     
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  12. L.A.Tactical

    L.A.Tactical

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    Just some pure speculative thoughts here:
    Point 1. Might there have been further Gen 1 production that never made it to the states? From what I've gathered talking to more educated collectors, Glock has been frustratingly flighty when it comes to providing any details about production numbers or methods. So, for all we know, they start with number 999 in a given prefix and work backwards. Not that I really believe that, I'm just pointing out that we have so little information about what has or has not been done. Stakhaus is the best database I know of for serial number research, but even they only have two listings in the AN prefix (a 19 and a 17L).

    Sidebar 1: If the Stakhaus data is accurate, that means there's another bank of possible 17Ls as well, beyond the DA, DB, & ED prefixes we've been discussing in a neighboring thread.

    Sidebar 2: I would love to be hired as the first Glock historian and dig into the factory records and start writing books for collectors (think Roy Jinks with S&W).

    My point being that it's definitely possible that there are a lot more 1st Gen 19s than we know and that they might not have been produced sequentially.

    Point 2. If you look at the attached photo (a custom job done by Fine Line Tactical--who is a fine forum member), you'll see how he has refinished a border on the bottom of the grip. It might be that, since the Gen 1 gun in question was for promotional material, the company spent a little more time sanding down the G17 frame to make it look like a finished product. The grip jobs on the true 19s we know of are of such embarrassingly bad finish that no professional company would put them on promotional material. If Dom can make them look better than factory with his custom textures, surely the engineers could've done up something a little nicer as well? IMG_5904.PNG
    Just throwing out a couple ideas...
     
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  13. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    Hey L.A. Tac-

    At work w/only a minute to check my email...

    Very interesting thoughts.

    Couple of comments....

    I've read everything that I could find about the G1 19s. I've also spoken to Stanley at Glock Collectors who knew the early Glock sales folks and production folks well. Same with the guy that I got my G1 19 from. They all say that only AN and DN guns exist. This is consistent with the Cody display and that no gun other than AN or DN has been seen on any forum, Google search, Glock catalog, magazine, etc.

    It's a very interesting thought that this one gun was custom made for this photo to present a more professional image of the 19 to the world. That said, the Gen 19 19s in their first Ads such as those which I copied above, the first magazine articles such as that which Marcus found and the gun which was given to the gun writer whose grandson now has it and has posted about it are all cut down 17s. One would think that if anything they'd have given this gun or one like to to the gun mag writer and their own ad staff knowing that it would be the introduction of the Gen 1 19 to the entire US.

    I know that my Gen 1 was used by an early Glock sales guy to introduce the 19 to US LE and it's a cut down 17.

    I've been emailing back and forth a serious Austrian Glock collector. He's seen a P80, a couple of P82, several very early 17s, etc. He's never even seen nor heard of a Gen 1 19 in Austria as they were apparently first made for the US market.

    The gun on the manual is a real mystery. Very interesting speculation that that one was finished differently. It does appear that the one in the catalog is flared at the bottom of the mag well and was thus made as a 19 frame and not a cut down 17 from what I can tell.

    Lastly, the DN guns were produced after the AN guns. Thus, if this were a very late model which was never really produced one would expect a DN and not an AN number - unless, for some reason, one of the AN numbers was reserved as Marcus notes is possible. But why?

    I sure do wish that Glock had a historian to. I vote for L.A. Tactical as he notes that he'd like to be :). Hopefully one day they'll catch up to S&W, Colt,etc and take their history and their collector base more seriously.

    Great thoughts. A mystery.

    (Sorry for any typos/errors. Will check and correct later. Gotta run.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 8:12 AM
  14. 303_enfield

    303_enfield

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    Could it be photo shopped or clip art used by the graphic artist?
     
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  15. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    Very interesting thought!!! That would make more sense than anything else that I can think of. Very interesting. Obviously photo editing was not then what it is now but for large companies I'm sure that they had editing capability.

    Just don't know.
     
  16. G17Collector

    G17Collector Original "G"

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    Doubtful. Desktop publishing on a PC in 1988/1989 was not what you think it was. However, Herr Glock does as Herr Glock wishes. The one thing that sticks out in the "refined" Gen1 is that the grip texture border at the bottom of the frame does not appear true - but this may be a matter of perspective of the picture.

    Is it a hidden Gen2 frame? Take a look at where the shadows lie. Somehow the sides of the trigger are rather well-defined - enough to make out that the trigger face is serrated BUT the texturing of the front and backstrap is darker than a black hole, and almost darker than the underside of the dust cover. The front and back of the grip seriously appear to be black. I'm going with an altered picture of a Gen2 frame.

    Also, there is no proof mark on the frame. You can easily make it out on the slide and can easily make out the patent info and Glock Smyrna info on the frame, but no proofmark.

    If there is any 1988 photo alteration going on, I'd bet it is to hide the Gen2 texturing.
     
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  17. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    As I mentioned to Marcus, that was my first thought - that it was a Gen 2 frame with a Gen 1 upper. I was thinking same - the areas that were blacked out, the pebble vs non-pebble boarder and contrast did seem too dark and too stark for a Gen 1.

    I spent a lot of time comparing my Gen 1 and Gen 2 19 and a Gen 1 17 to the photos. I also took calipers to measure different parts of the different models to see if the scale in the photo was correct for a 19 vs a 17 frame, etc.

    What got me thinking that the image in the photo is a Gen 1 and not Gen 2 frame was the relative position of the importer mark "Glock Inc, Smyrna..." above the textured portion of the grip panel. The gun in the catalog is consistent w/a Gen 1 and not a Gen 2. This difference can be seen in the lower of the two pics that I posted of my Gen 1 and Gen 2 19s.

    This is what really baffled me. The Gen 2 frame w/editing made, by far, the most sense. It is the extent of the pebbling relative the the boarders of the import mark which convinced me that the image is a Gen 1 frame. The hidden back straps, contrast of the pebbled vs non pebbled portions, on top of all that I've learned about Gen 1 19s had me thinking it was a Gen 2 frame w/photo work.

    Of course, the extent of pebbling could be edited too however that would really require a tremendous attention to detail.

    I really find this mysterious. Great discussion.
     
  18. SmokieXD45

    SmokieXD45

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    Interesting. I will say that's the first I've ever seen this brought up. I'm interested to see what Ron, LA tactical, or anyone else digs up regarding it.

    I'm leaning towards edited photo, just due to the fact that there is zero information out there about a variation like this ever being produced.

    I can't imagine that Glock would spend the time to perfect the mold for it, and not make at least a handful. Being how soon after the known gen 1's were made, and when the gen 2's came out, I'd have a hard time believing that there were two different molds being worked on at nearly the same time. It just doesn't seem like it would be in their budget or even make good business sense to do this when the company was still in its infancy and profit margins were slim.

    Another long shot possibility would be that they did produce several of them, but were all destroyed as test guns as per atf request along with the other gen 1's that went to the chopper.

    Either way, thank you for posting this
     
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  19. glockhoarder

    glockhoarder

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    Hi Smokie-

    Great to hear from you on this. Fantastic points. Totally agree re/the molds, timing, etc.

    There was basically a three month period from the first Gen 1 19s to the Gen 2s. As you note well, the different mold would make no sense.

    Of course, perhaps some prototype was made and then destroyed. But why? As you note, just as they were working on the Gen 2? Why an early AN SN and not a DN when the DNs were the last made?

    I forgot to note in my post above, when I spoke to Ed at Glock (the closest person they seem to have to a historian) about my Gen 1 19 he was very clear that only AN and DN Gen 1 19s were made. He never said anything about a different version.

    Great hearing from you!!

    All the best,

    Ron
     
  20. 303_enfield

    303_enfield

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    I was thinking MAC not PC. MAC was King of graphic artist in the 80's an till 2000 + or so. Well that's what the ex told me when she spent 7K+ on a MAC for work in 88. Photoshop was imagepro in '88 IIRC.

    What that 7K would have bought ME in '88 :(