Glock Forum - GlockTalk banner

1 - 20 of 68 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Last night I saw the local congressman from Orlando calling for more gun control. The interviewer asked if the people inside the nightclub should have been able to defend themselves? The congressman replied that there was an armed off duty police officer working security, and that didn't do any good, so any of the victims being armed would have just made things worse.

My impression from the news coverage is that the shooter attacked people in the club, and then tried to leave. He was shot at by the off duty cop (who was presumably in the parking lot?) and chased back into the building. Which was admittedly not good for the people still trapped inside.

In 20/20 hindsight, maybe the cop should have let him get clear of the building, then positioned himself between the shooter and the building to try to protect the people inside. However, the cop was alone, and probably couldn't have known what he was dealing with, so that's in no way a criticism of his actions. He tried to take out the shooter, and regretfully didn't succeed (was the shooter wearing body armor?).

And if the lone cop had not engaged the shooter, then he could have escaped and continued on with a Paris style attack of hitting multiple targets. This would have been much harder for the police to deal with, and it might have taken days to find him if he got away from pursuing officers.

Unlike the all-knowing congressman, I'm not prepared to say that shooting back at a terrorist is ineffective. The facts are that the shooter picked out a Gun Free Zone to attack, and then ran away from the first person that shot back at him. These are clues that shouldn't be ignored.
 

·
NRA Member
Joined
·
17,703 Posts
I think the question goes beyond the actions of one person and I wouldn't second guess his actions.

Taking the question to a more general level, I think if patrons who are not drinking were armed and knew how to use the weapons, the odds are that less innocent lives would be lost.

If you take it a step further, it's one thing to be shooting 'fish in a barrel' like Paris or Orlando where the masses are all unarmed. It's quite another if you suddenly start receiving return gunfire from multiple directions. Heck, I get rattled just shooting matches when my pre-stage plan gets buggered because of a stupid mental mistake. I'd imagine his plan would go out the window if he received return fire from multiple directions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,134 Posts
Good Point.
To Bad hindsight is 20/20.

Makes me wonder if something similar would have happened in a 'Gun Free' . Gangbanger's Hip -Hop Club?
 

·
NRA Life Member
Joined
·
29,066 Posts
We (I) certainly haven't heard the details yet of the encounter with the armed off-duty LE. My impression was that it started outside and the shooter moved inside. This is based partly on how he would have made it inside past somebody guarding the door carrying a long gun and whatever else he had.

The details of how he got past the guard are needed. A handgun was potentially ineffective there.

wp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Again, I'm in no way trying to second guess the off-duty cop. Every time a battle is over, you can always see things that could have been done better. He apparently tried to neutralize the shooter right away. Hard to argue with that.

I hope we'll have a timeline of what actually happened in a few days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,134 Posts
This also makes me wonder if this type of 'crime scene' can ever accurately be reconstructed .
&
Did this Club have any Cameras inside?

I will assume - There is quite a few Pic's , Video, and Messages from inside the club especially after the initial assault.
But
This really depends on where & how the Hostages were held.

Assumption is what it is.
 

·
AAAMAD
Joined
·
31,573 Posts
Lets not forget, this guy was a security guard who has atleast some training. Potentially pretty decent training, as G4S does have some more rather high speed gigs.

A trained guy with a rifle, a handgun, multiple magazines, and with pre-planning and surprise has a marked advantage over even a good guy with a pistol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,647 Posts
It will be interesting when we know the whole story. For all we know there could have been many shooters in the building. I've seen reports that there were 2 or 3 shooters, and this is from people that were in the building.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,692 Posts
I thought the first cop engaged him outside before he even went into the building then the shooter retreated into the building.

I guess when you're up against a rifle it's difficult to pursue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59,812 Posts
I thought the initial engagement was when the Islamic terrorist was going into the club, not trying to get out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,134 Posts
Like most 'Curious ' Humans I want a "Mas Type" Break Down of this tragedy Now.
But
As always -in-Time....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,692 Posts
It will be interesting when we know the whole story. For all we know there could have been many shooters in the building. I've seen reports that there were 2 or 3 shooters, and this is from people that were in the building.
I've seen no media report that, and if there were anything to it I would think we'd know by now. That info came only from a relative of someone there AFAIK. Hardly convincing evidence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,256 Posts
Cop in Texas did ok against two rifleman. G4S is okay. I have trained a bunch of them over the years. Better than most security companines.

As was stated above, POS didn't strike at a biker bar either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59,812 Posts
I would think that by now if there were multiple shooters and one managed to get away that would be all over the news with whatever description of him there was. And even if multiple shooters inside there are enough reporters on the scene all trying to get some unique story that if there was anything minimally credible, it would be out by now.
 

·
NRA Life Member
Joined
·
29,066 Posts
Lets not forget, this guy was a security guard who has atleast some training. Potentially pretty decent training, as G4S does have some more rather high speed gigs.

A trained guy with a rifle, a handgun, multiple magazines, and with pre-planning and surprise has a marked advantage over even a good guy with a pistol.
A Florida G license doesn't require much. I watched them taught at my home range. Anybody that has shot a routine IDPA match is probably a better shooter.

http://invictussecurity.com/class-g-security-license-in-florida/

wp
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,744 Posts
Lets not forget, this guy was a security guard who has atleast some training. Potentially pretty decent training, as G4S does have some more rather high speed gigs.

A trained guy with a rifle, a handgun, multiple magazines, and with pre-planning and surprise has a marked advantage over even a good guy with a pistol.

He has a huge advantage, but you can't assault hundreds of people like that without turning your back on a lot of them. No amount of equipment and training will help if you get lit up from behind by some little nerdy guy wearing a fanny pack.
 

·
AAAMAD
Joined
·
31,573 Posts
He has a huge advantage, but you can't assault hundreds of people like that without turning your back on a lot of them. No amount of equipment and training will help if you get lit up from behind by some little nerdy guy wearing a fanny pack.
I don't disagree at all. I was simply referring to his engagement with the off duty officer, in the vein of was a handgun ineffective.

It was 1v1, and the shooter was the only one expecting an armed encounter. The cop was outgunned, and at a significant disadvantage
 

·
NRA Life Member
Joined
·
65,507 Posts
Last night I saw the local congressman from Orlando calling for more gun control. The interviewer asked if the people inside the nightclub should have been able to defend themselves? The congressman replied that there was an armed off duty police officer working security, and that didn't do any good, so any of the victims being armed would have just made things worse.
Did anybody point out to him that they finally stopped the shooter by SHOOTING him?

Some people are incredibly stupid. You would think that a person would have to be intelligent to make a career out of the scheming and double-talking required to be a politician, but years of working with them has convinced me that they are, at best, perfectly average brains with an over-sized ego.
 
1 - 20 of 68 Posts
Top