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Warning about E15 gasoline AAA says---

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by lethal tupperwa, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. paynter2

    paynter2 It ain't over Millennium Member

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    I saw that interview last weekend - this morning I posted the link on another ethanol thread.

    Toward the end of the video, the interviewer says you can find comparisons in mileage, between gasoline and ethanol, on the AAA web site. I could not find those comparisons.

    Maybe another GT'er can find that and post a link?
     

  2. John Rambo

    John Rambo Raven

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    E10 gasoline already eats away seals, especially in motorcycles where you don't pump as much and end up getting too much ethanol.

    Putting ethanol in our gas was a horrible move and is going to cause more and more problems for us.
     
  3. RenoF250

    RenoF250

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    Yes, my 2011 Hyundai says in the manual not to use more than E10. Thanks moron government.
     
  4. coastal4974

    coastal4974

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    I'm from the gubmint, I'm here to help. :wavey:
     
  5. Reswob

    Reswob

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    This isn't news. Most of us have known ethanol was bad for your car ever since the hippies started pushing it a few years back.
     
  6. blk69stang

    blk69stang

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    I read something a while back about "washing" ethanol out of pump gas. The theory was that since ethanol is hygroscopic (attracts/absorbs water), that by adding water to the gasoline and mixing, the ethanol would bind to the water and then settle out, leaving ethanol free gasoline floating on the top.

    The theory is sound, as I do exactly that same process when I make biodiesel at home (only I'm washing out it's cousin Methanol).

    My only issue is the possibility of dissolving water into the gasoline that wouldn't settle out. With biodiesel, I have to "dry" the fuel to remove the dissolved water. With biodiesel, which doesn't readily evaporate, it's pretty easy to do- just heat the bioD and then increasing its surface area (usally by pumping the bioD through a sprinkler head or similar) so that the water can evaporate. Won't work with gasoline though, as the gasoline would evaporate more readily than the water.

    Distill out the gasoline maybe? Chemical drying agent that would bond with the water and settle out?

    Thoughts?
     
  7. goldenlight

    goldenlight

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    In my state the farm lobby was trying to shove through a bill to require farking 20% Ethanol in ALL of the motor vehicle fuel sold in the state.:steamed::steamed::steamed:

    The bill was defeated, but there will be another one in the current legislative session.:steamed:
     
  8. elsolo

    elsolo

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    Don't blame the tree huggers on this one, using ethanol for fuel increases crude oil consumption and environmentalists are not promoting it.
    Pimental, the Cornell scientist, has been required reading on the topic for 20 yrs.

    Look at the giant corn and chemical lobby:
    Monsanto, DuPont, ADM, etc.

    They are making billions off this, at the expense of everybody else in America.
     
  9. BigMoneyGrip

    BigMoneyGrip

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    I've never believed this. If you take out the ethanol, you're also taking out some of the octane. How much octane do you lose?
     
  10. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger Big, educated kitty cat!

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    My Honda is the same way. Supposedly Honda (and Hyundai it appears) have determined that anything over 10% ethanol is bad for the car. Honda will not flex-fuel (ie approve Ethanol) in any of their cars for that reason.
     
  11. lethal tupperwa

    lethal tupperwa

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    One car dealer has the instrument to measure ethanol (supposed to be 10% in this state)in the tank.

    They have found some cars with 20% or more.
     
  12. blk69stang

    blk69stang

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    Well, while I know what you're getting at (you mean it is reducing the fuel's anti-knock properties), the statement about losing "octane" is not exactly right.

    Ethanol is resistant to "knocking", so removing it might reduce the "anti-knock index" of the remaining gasoline, thus reducing its octane RATING.

    However, just for claritity's sake, "octane" is a chemical compound in gasoline, while "octane rating" describes the anti-knock properties of gasoline that are often influenced by the amound of "octane" (chemical) that is present in the gasoline. Ethanol is not "octane" per se, but because it has a higher autoignition temperature, it has a similar effect on gasoline as "octane" (chemical) does, thus adding ethanol will increase the "octane RATING" of gasoline.


    Semantics aside, that is a good point that I did not consider. I would imagine though that the octane rating of washed fuel could not be reduced by more than the percentage of ethanol that was present to begin with. I.E., washing the ethanol out of E15 gasoline could not lower the octane rating more than 15%. In 87 octane, that would be 13 point decrease (theoretical max) making it come out to 74 octane. 93 hi-test would lose 14, bringing it to 79 octane.

    These numbers are worst-case scenarios of course, and would only hold true for an "infinitely high anti-knock index" of ethanol, which of course it doesn't have.

    Okay, my google-fu shows Ethanol with an "octane rating" of 99. So, lets let the math do the work for us. I used a weighted average calculator, and by my math it works out that in 87 octane E15, the remaining gasoline would be about 85 octane. In 93 hi-test E15, the remaining gasoline would be 92 octane.

    So yeah, you'd lose a point or two of octane rating, but I think that it would be negligible. If you were really concerned about it, you could blend back in 15% 100LL AvGas (which is Ethanol-free, and roughly the same octane rating as Ethanol). Of course, the small amount of lead would wreck the catalytic converter, so this should be reserved for SHTF or pre-emissions vehicles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  13. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    E85 is close to 105 octane equivalent. You will make more power with E85 than with 104 octane unleaded due to the latent heat of vaporization. Ethanol is 846 KJ/kg. Gasoline is between 586-628 KJ/kg.
     
  14. RenoF250

    RenoF250

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    What?? I think it is pretty widely accepted that Ethanol reduces power/mileage.
     
  15. elsolo

    elsolo

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    unless you have very high compression, does the above even make a difference?

    What about the BTU difference?
     
  16. Spiffums

    Spiffums I.C.P.

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    I remember Dad bought a new 1986 Bronco II. That was the 1st year that all of them came with EFI. Raceway built a new station here that had Ethanol gas and it was always cheaper......even when gas was under a dollar a gallon. It burned out the injectors in the Bronco in about 8 months.
     
  17. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    Those people that accept that are very wrong. Just because a lot of people accept something that is incorrect does not make it correct.
     
  18. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    I am talking about making power. Dyanamic compression ratio is one of the ways to make that power and when higher octane equivalent fuel is needed. You wont make more power throwing 104 octane unleaded race fuel in your Prius.

    You increase fuel supply by about 30% (which also increases the amount of alcohol the has a phase change making it even more effective at intake charge cooling)
     
  19. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    So widely "accepted" that the Germans figured out in WWII that ethanol injection made more power?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW50