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dpast32
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Good Morning Gents, As someone who's studied the overall relative effectiveness of various projectiles over the years, I naturally had come to some conclusions which usually pan out in practice. When I read this particular Article, I felt pleased that it supported many of my personal observations, & more importantly, it confirmed one of my 'pet' assumptions which is that simpy due to its larger diameter, along with its heavier weight, the .452" diameter projectile will 'usually' result in increased tissue damage, thereby resulting in more rapid cessation of hostilities due to more rapid exsanguination, 'bleeding out', & yes, even at somewhat slower velocity. The following Article basically confirms pretty much everything I've been stating here over the years, & also elsewhere. And when reading, please keep in mind that the Author does indeed appear qualified to as to the relative subject matter. So, please read this interesting Article & let us know your particular thoughts on its overall consensus. ( BTW: I didn't copy the entire Article here, as I was concerned about Copyright Violations, otherwise I would have for everyone's convenience. )

Best, Dom P. / dpast32

LINK: A Medical Perspective On Ammunition And Lethality
 

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I'd be more cynical, but my apathy prevents it.
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This article is all over the place. There is no support other than an unsubstantiated claim (unknown by who) that supposedly .45 ACP has twice the lethality of .40 S&W. Are we really to believe that less than 2 millimeters of diameter and a little more weight than a .22 LR bullet makes the difference?

Carry whatever makes you comfortable, but I wouldn’t make any decisions just based on this.
 

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JABRONI AUTIST
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I don't have a problem with the idea that bigger bullets create more damage and can incapacitate faster, that's pretty much commonsense. However, I find this quote enough to dismiss the whole article:

"They all agreed that, from a medical perspective, there was no noticeable or real-world difference between .380 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum and 40-caliber. "

Yeah...no difference between a 380 ACP and a 357 Magnum. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

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Hmm, reading the article, and her quals, she would probably get admitted as an expert in a court, but lots of holes in her theory. Lots of hyperbole.

Most leading ballistics experts agree that when you increase the on target energy transfer (mass and velocity) you increase the damage. Too much of one, without enough of the other is no good. Pistol calibers are all a compromise between a knife and a long gun. The difference between a 9mm and 10mm is relatively small when you compare either to a 5.56, a 12g slug, a .308. Quibbling about the relative merits of 9mm vs 45 is a myopic exercise. The parameters, limitations and shot placement are narrow and betting on a one shot stop based on the caliber alone is a fools errand.
 

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Hmm, reading the article, and her quals, she would probably get admitted as an expert in a court, but lots of holes in her theory. Lots of hyperbole.

Most leading ballistics experts agree that when you increase the on target energy transfer (mass and velocity) you increase the damage. Too much of one, without enough of the other is no good. Pistol calibers are all a compromise between a knife and a long gun. The difference between a 9mm and 10mm is relatively small when you compare either to a 5.56, a 12g slug, a .308. Quibbling about the relative merits of 9mm vs 45 is a myopic exercise. The parameters, limitations and shot placement are narrow and betting on a one shot stop based on the caliber alone is a fools errand.
You just got to have the right handgun load is all. I don't need no stinkin' "shot placement".

Right from the Herter's Catalog.....it's gotta' be true.

"The fabulous .401 Powermag...is the ideal large caliber revolver cartridge. Will kill any animal on the face of the earth, or shoot through the cylinder block of any automobile. It will flatten any human, no matter where you hit him...This is the finest big game or law enforcement revolver...With this revolver you can hunt deer, and all North American and African game...".

Revolver Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Everyday carry
 

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So let's all rush out and trade our puny 9mm for 45 ACP's because some Doctor from a Michigan University says so. Universities are never wrong about anything, as we all well know.....:poop:
 

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So let's all rush out and trade our puny 9mm for 45 ACP's because some Doctor from a Michigan University says so. Universities are never wrong about anything, as we all well know.....:poop:
Um, she is a PA, not a Doctor. The while thing is fishy though.
 

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it confirmed one of my 'pet' assumptions which is that simpy due to its larger diameter, along with its heavier weight, the .452" diameter projectile will 'usually' result in increased tissue damage, thereby resulting in more rapid cessation of hostilities due to more rapid exsanguination, 'bleeding out', & yes, even at somewhat slower velocity. The following Article basically confirms pretty much everything I've been stating here over the years, & also elsewhere. A Medical Perspective On Ammunition And Lethality
Your conclusions are not supported by portions of the article you linked. Indeed the author's conclusions are not the same as those you have drawn.

Effective incapacitation, aka cessation of threat, viewed from the perspective of the armed citizen does not directly equate with fatality rates viewed from an emergency trauma room. These are two different outcome measurements. Ironically, one could even make an argument that .45ACP is a less ethical choice for self-defense on the basis that it adds nothing to effective incapacitation (the legitimate goal of self-defense firearm use) while increasing lethality (which is not the goal).
 

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dpast32
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ohh Boy, I apparently pissed off a few people. I found that she was about the only medical person who even mentioned that the .45 appeared more effective, efficient, whatever description you care to use. I've stated over & over that I carry a 9mm daily, yet I can't help feeling that the .45 will prove more effective than the 9x19, all else being equal, as in placement, projectile penetration, etc. Almost universally, much of what we've heard from the medical profession tends to be that it matters not what caliber or weight your projectile is, they almost all perform in a similar fashion. What caught my eye within her Article is that she must have determined somewhere, although she doesn't state exactly where, that the .45 is twice as effective as the lesser calibers. I have long felt that way, along with many others. But like I said, the 9mm can be an adequate round, albeit with the proper ammunition. She also noted that the .45 didn't appear to require use of a JHP, as 'she' had determined irregardless of the design, it was still more effective ? Either way, I prefer the .45, you may choose any caliber you desire.
 
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What caught my eye within her Article is that she must have determined somewhere, although she doesn't state exactly where, that the .45 is twice as effective as the lesser calibers.
If she believes that she’s simply wrong. If 45 were twice as effective it would be glaringly obvious by now, given that 9mm and 45 are both over 100 years old, and 40 has many decades under its belt. Same for the 357s / 38. We’re literally swimming in data on how these rounds perform. If one were significantly better we’d all know it by now and that’s what we’d all be using.

Instead what we’re seeing is a slow trend away from 45 by groups that use their handguns for a living. These groups have done their research, by the way. The switch wouldn’t have been made if 45 were demonstrably twice as effective, and it’s not because “cops can’t shoot”, before anyone goes there. It’s because given equivalent placement one service pistol caliber performs much the same as another.

There is one very good quote from the article:

“Shot placement, not caliber used or bullet type used, is the major deciding factor in lethality.”

If we’d just leave it at that perhaps we could all just go on with our lives with the understanding that the differences between service calibers are, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant to surviving the gunfight. Logistically one might make more sense than another, but in terms of stopping the fight, where you hit a person is infinitely more critical than what you hit them with.
 

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...

There is one very good quote from the article:

“Shot placement, not caliber used or bullet type used, is the major deciding factor in lethality.”

If we’d just leave it at that perhaps we could all just go on with our lives with the understanding that the differences between service calibers are, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant to surviving the gunfight. Logistically one might make more sense than another, but in terms of stopping the fight, where you hit a person is infinitely more critical than what you hit them with.
I was tempted to quote the same part, as it was expected when discussing the actual usage of handguns as defensive weapons in the last several decades. ;) It was more or less a repetition of what has already been realized in some other 'articles' & 'studies' over the years, so it's not like it's treading upon new ground.

No matter how the same evidence is packaged and discussed, a lot of everyday folks are still going to go spend their money to buy whatever the 'latest & greatest' new ammo may be, especially when packaged in a new glitzy package and promoted in the advertising pages or digital content of magazines, brochures and the various 'me too' video blogs. And especially if a HD pic of an expanded bullet is on the packaging, and ME/MV numbers are prominently displayed. Fish bite on bait. It makes the world go 'round. :)
 

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I like the part where she details her painstaking and rigorous research:

"In the weeks leading up to the writing of this article, I spoke to several medical staff ... their information was somewhat inconclusive ... They all agreed that, from a medical perspective, there was no noticeable or real-world difference between .380 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum and 40-caliber."

I don't know how the rest of you can doubt these facts.

Some hallway conversations with "several" medical staff people has determined that all calibers except .45 are effectively the same. (Inconclusively speaking, of course.)

What further proof could you possibly need????
 
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