VA ALERT: Manassas PD harassment

Discussion in 'Glockers of the Old Dominion' started by Slinger646, Feb 17, 2007.

  1. DKSuddeth

    DKSuddeth

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    jerseycitysteves attitude about open carry, and alot of those like him, are just a part of what will eventually destroy our right to keep and bear arms. WE, as gunowners, can't even come together on who, when, where, how, and why anyone should carry. With this kind of division, it's no wonder the anti's and statists can continue to chip away at the right.

    If we want to have any hope of keeping our arms on our persons, we need to acknowledge and understand that the right is absolute, that there is no room for 'reasonable' regulation. There is no credible advantage of concealed carry over open carry, the advantage is only perceived. There is always a negative from hunters not speaking up because an AWB doesn't affect their rifle and shotgun.

    get it together fellow americans, for if we don't hang together, we will surely hang seperately.
     
  2. Truckee

    Truckee Aging Goat

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    JerseyCity,

    We have crossed posts on this board a couple of times. In the past, I have attempted to see your POV on issues. I did this for the respect of your opinions and in the attempt to educate myself, in case I was missing something along the way. Now days, for the life of me, I cannot see how a gun-owner and CHP holder harbors some of the views that you do. I continue to respect your positions, but I disagree with most of them... as it seems you do with most of ours.

    Once upon a time, I was an avid hunter. Many years ago, I watched as one of my prey suffered over a destructive, but non-fatal shot. The suffering and hopelessness in that animal's eyes turned me against the sport. As a personal decision, I stopped hunting and have not since been a predator of wildlife. However and to this day, I continue to support the sport and still love a walk in the woods. I continue to buy the license and I support hunting as well as hunter's, their decisions and their rights. My position is that hunters are consumers, gun-owners and shooters... and we all have to stick together. I use this paragraph as a personal example. Although I am no longer interested in one aspect of firearms usage, I can and do, look at the bigger picture of gun ownership.

    I agree that one should not 'argue' with LEO. However, I do not agree that a civil conversation cannot be conducted between two (et al) adults. The only -chats- that I've seen gone awry between citizens and cops are when the citizens are in the wrong or the cop(s) are pompous and badge-heavy. I have always welcomed a civil discussion when the situation allows.

    I can offer my hypothetical actions at Tony's. Post sizing-up the situation and seeing that these men were patrons, whom happened to be carrying handguns, I would have pulled up a chair and had a quick chat. Then, I would have gotten up, exited and gone forth to handle bigger problems. Here again, age and wisdom have eroded my badge-heavy pompousness (most of the time anyhow), but certainly when unwarranted.

    Before anyone says that the police should never have been there in the first place... or that I (as the cop) did not have cause to approach these men. I say that a citizen call had been made and that there are too many lawyers and brass waiting for the police to simply disregard that sort of call.

    Steve,
    I ask you to re-join the VCDL. I ask you to reconsider the bigger picture of gun ownership. I too regret that the political air of late dictates a no compromise or middle-ground stance. The antis don't give any, therefore we cannot. Not liking the color of a Ferrari should have no impact on fully appreciating the way it handles.
     

  3. dbrowne1

    dbrowne1 Senior Member

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    Rosa Parks was arrested because she violated what was, at the time, the law. People carrying openly in VA aren't even violating the letter of the law, yet they are being harrassed and being referred to by LEOs as "assclowns."

    Some of the things I read in that FOIA response, and the attitudes displayed therein, scare me. Too many to list. The best is the response that puts "right to bear arms" in quotes, as though we pulled the concept out of our asses and as though it doesn't exist in the VA or U.S. constitutions.

    Those officers should should be transferred to a third world dictatorship where their attitudes would be more appropriate, not reprimanded and kept around to take out their grudges on gun owners in the future.

    They seem to have this idea that VCDL is systematically probing PD responses or trolling for a lawsuit. The way I look at it, the government (and NOVA agencies in particular) are probing gun owners to test our responses and resolve to see how much they can push us around and enforce their own ideas of how and where guns can be carried, instead of doing their jobs and enforcing the Code. Their entire attitude reeks of typical self-serving government agency hubris, concerned with their own power and agenda rather than serving their communities by enforcing the law created by elected officials.

    The theme that I take away from this whole situation is that this agency is frustrated that the Code, which they supposedly enforce but apparently have not actually read until this incident, doesn't allow them to take any real action against people open carrying. Evidently, actually reading the Code makes one "hyper aware" of its provisions. That in itself is frightening, given that these people have the authority to ruin lives by enforcing the Code - or what they think the Code says.
     
  4. dbrowne1

    dbrowne1 Senior Member

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    Phillip-

    I'm sure you've already thought of this, but have you contacted any Manassass (or NOVA generally) business/restaurant owners who might be willing to come speak at the meeting, and indicate that they don't mind open carry or even encourage it in their establishments?

    These officers seem to think that it's beyond question that all business owners are against lawful carry. That is definitely not the case.
     
  5. RandySmith

    RandySmith

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    How about choice D?

    D. Spend your money elsewhere.

    Choice B isn't too bad either, since there is no punishment for breaking this law - not that I am advocating such.

    Something else that bothers me is the wording often used claiming that VA law *requires* you to open carry in an establishment that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption.

    The implication here (and problem) is that VA law requires you to carry. VA law does not require you to carry.

    *IF* you choose to carry in such an establishment, VA law requires that you do not conceal the handgun.

    Randy
     
  6. PVanCleave

    PVanCleave

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    Randy,

    Option D would only make sense in places with 'no guns' signs, unless you are willing to totally give up eating in restaurants that happen to serve alcohol.

    Darren,

    We haven't contact any of the businesses. I think it is pretty clear from the lack of 'no guns' signs on 99% of businesses that they are not overly concerned about it.


    Philip
     
  7. KONY

    KONY

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    Randy,

    With all due respect, I hardly think anyone interprets the open carry laws in this manner but I may be wrong. If so, then I guess it's good to make this clear. However, from your post, I still get the impression that you are against open carry and that you'd rather leave your firearm in your car than carry openly. Is this accurate?
     
  8. dbrowne1

    dbrowne1 Senior Member

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    You could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon under 18.2-308. The Code says that carrying a concealed weapon is illegal, except for certain enumerated exceptions. One of those exceptions is carrying if you have a permit, BUT the Code makes clear that the permit does not allow you to carry concealed in any establishment licensed to serve alcohol for on premises consumption. In other words, if you carry concealed inside an alcohol-serving establishment, it is legally the same as carrying concealed w/o a permit on the street.

    So, you are violating 18.2-308 and would be subject to its penalties if caught.
     
  9. bulwaagh

    bulwaagh Guest

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    I'm sure that Randy's well aware of the implications and the code. :supergrin:

    Not to say that I will publicly agree with his version of "B" but let's just say, I can see his point of view. :whistling:
     
  10. dbrowne1

    dbrowne1 Senior Member

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    Yes, perhaps I misinterpreted his statement about "no punishment." There is some truth to the old adage that "it's only a crime if you get caught," but certainly I don't advocate this course, either.
     
  11. gunman_23

    gunman_23 GOOGLE IT

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    You all missed something special!

    In the Manassas city council chamber there is roughly 100 seats.

    I think there were 7 people that were not VCDL affiliated or in support.

    We filled almost every seat ourselves, there were members all along the back, down the sides of the seating area, and out into the hall.

    Over 160 *****-clowns (if you are Manassas PD) or over 160 "in your face cowboys ruining the image of gun owners" if you are JerseyCitySteve

    P. Van Cleave spoke for 10 minutes, then we had speakers come to the mic and express their feelings in passionate and professional manners for up to three minutes each. Our members spoke for an hour and a half thanks to those 3 minute periods.

    I was happy to express my concerns and thanks to fellow VCDL member Ian, I have a pic of it.

    [​IMG]


    Here is the VCDL alert that came out this morning


    VCDL's Gun Dealer Legal Defense Fund -- help fight Mayor Bloomberg's
    scheme to cripple Virginia firearms dealers. See: www.vcdl.org/index.html#DefenseFund
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    To unsubscribe or change your email address, please follow the
    directions at the end of this message.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    It's 3:45 AM, I'm still wired, there could be 'type-os' in this (sorry). I simply don't know what better sums it up than "!!WOW!!" There were way over 100 VCDL members and supporters at the Manassas City Council meeting tonight.

    The Manassas City Council members were clearly shocked by the numbers.

    The Mayor led off by saying that he could not remember ever seeing such a large crowd for **anything** they had done before!

    I brought 40 'Guns Save Lives' badges that were distributed in minutes, leaving over half of the people without a badge. :-(

    We not only filled up all the seating (100 seats - about 95% of them VCDL members), we lined BOTH walls and ran out into the hall!

    A good portion of the members were open carrying during the meeting. No uniformed officers in sight (but there were some plain clothes officers in the audience).

    I led off, taking 10 minutes to describe the situation, describing the problem with officers who would abuse their power to coerce the restaurant owner to kick the 7 innocent gun owners out, and calling for the SEVERE reprimand or FIRING of Officers Chad Hyland, Rickey Clodfelter, and Tina Pannell. Hyland and Clodfelter for their total disdain for law-abiding gun owners and coercing the restaurant owner into kicking out the gun owners, and Pannell because as a SUPERVISOR she should have known better and put a stop to the 'kicking out the good guys' situation. I did say that a demotion would be acceptable for her, but that she clearly was not an acceptable supervisor.

    When I was finished, the Mayor read a letter from Chief Skinner, saying, fairly enough, that he couldn't comment as there was an active investigation into the matter.

    I was followed one speaker after the other for over 1.5 hours - each person getting three minutes!

    The speakers were all superb, showing City Council, in no uncertain terms, that none of us are 'assclowns.'

    Also THREE of the 7 gun owners at Tony's that fateful night spoke.

    The Mayor was very congenial and several speakers made a point of thanking City Council for making the audience feel 'at home' (but still asking Council to fix the problem at hand). We had speakers come from over 200 miles away and a good share were Manassas residents, too!

    After the meeting, 30 of us headed over to a local IHOP for a meal.

    Everyone was jubilant - as we all had felt the power and comradery in the City Council Room that night. For many this was their first experience going from a gun-rights supporter to a gun-rights activist. Caution! I don't think there is anyway to go back, either. ;-)

    Member Matt Gottshalk was there making a professional quality video which will be online in a day or two for those of you who would like to see and hear key parts of the meeting. He will cut it down to 6 speakers - myself, Jim Snyder, Dennis O'Connor, and three of the seven people at Tony's Pizza that fateful night in January. I will send an alert when the video is ready to view.

    Channel 4 (NBC) in NoVA already ran a story on the meeting at 11 PM.

    The Potomac News story covering the meeting is below. It is very well done and includes a picture to put things in perspective. Reporter Elisa Glushefski explains the Virginia open carry laws in the article, too - an additional bonus!

    In case you are wondering about my elaborate hand gesture - I was turning to ask all gun owners who were in support of VCDL's position to raise their hand.

    They did and, boy, was that a lot of hands in the air!

    BTW, this was the single biggest turnout for a VCDL action at any city, town, or county government meeting ever! We can turn out 60 members under good conditions, but over 100 is way beyond the norm! Tidewater held the record when we attended a Norfolk City Council meeting some years ago, but Northern Virginia has just thrown down the gauntlet big time! ;-)

    As long as we can turn out lots of gun owners for things such as this and, standing shoulder-to-shoulder, do what we did so very well tonight, we will continue to be a force to be reckoned with in Virginia.

    GOOD WORK, VCDL! I'M PROUD OF YOU!

    http://tinyurl.com/ywueut

    Gun rights group takes case to council
    By ELISA A. GLUSHEFSKI
    [email protected]
    Tuesday, February 27, 2007


    More than 50 gun rights advocates protested police conduct during an incident at a city restaurant with some calling for the firing of several of the officers involved at Monday night's Manassas City Council meeting. [It was more than 50, but it was also well over 100, too. - PVC]

    The public outcry comes two weeks after Springfield-resident Russ Troxel filed a complaint against the police department about an incident involving him and six friends who were openly carrying their weapons while dining at Tony's New York Pizza on Mathis Avenue on the evening of Jan. 13.

    A second complaint was filed Friday by Fairfax resident Mark Anderson who states that among other things the officers overstepped their authority by "coercing" the owner of Tony's to kick them out after they had already been there for nearly an hour.

    Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League Inc., asked at the meeting that three of the seven responding officers - Tina Pannell, Chad Hyland and Rickey Clodfelter - be reprimanded or fired.

    Van Cleave said that as the supervisor at the scene, Pannell should have taken control of the situation and told the other officers that they were legally allowed to openly carry their weapons there.

    "If the police can't do this right then we've got a big problem," he said.

    The incident started with a 911 call from an unnamed man who reported that the men's guns were making him uncomfortable.

    It was the initial antagonistic attitude of Hyland, who demanded IDs from the men even though they weren't committing a crime, and the officer's ignorance of the law that Troxel's and others said is unacceptable.

    Troxel, who was among those who attended the meeting, said the officers also refused to accept paperwork documenting the state's open-carry law.

    Police Chief John J. Skinner said he would like to comment publicly but can't because the complaints are part of an internal investigation.

    The timeline for the investigation could be extended if new information or witnesses is revealed, he said, adding that he plans to discuss the new complaint with the investigator today.

    The men say they were within their rights because Virginia law requires that weapons be carried in the open in places that serve alcohol.

    And while carrying a concealed weapon requires a court-issued permit, no permit is required to carry a gun in the open.

    The manager of Tony's has said that the men were asked to leave because of several complaints the restaurant received from regular customers.

    In Anderson's complaint, he also says that one of the officers cursed at him "repeatedly" throughout the incident.

    At least two of the officers refer to the men "assclowns" and "retards" in intradepartmental messages and e-mails that were obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request by Mike Stollenwerk, one of the founders of Open carry.org.

    In an e-mail Clodfelter sent five of the other officers the day after the incident, he copied the state code that prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons in any place that serves alcohol and concludes that they were legally allowed to carry their guns openly that night.

    In the same e-mail, Clodfelter also wrote: "My guess is the over-compensating assclowns at Tony's were hyper-aware of all this, and that's why they started crying like little babies when their event got spoiled by the whole 'let's get the owner to tell them to get the f-- out' thing."

    Troxel and the six other men are members of a forum on Opencarry.org.

    Skinner said he would release the findings of the internal investigation when it is completed.



    ***************************************************************************
    VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL).
    VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to
    defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the
    Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right.

    VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org





    We had members show up from all over the state to support our fellow gun owners.
    I cannot express how proud I am of my fellow members and how proud I am to be a member of this organization!

    Like I said last night, violations of our civil rights cannot be tolerated. Harassment of citizens for exercising their freedom of speech or practicing their religion would not be tolerated, so why should violations of the second amendment be tolerated? The only difference between the second amendment and all others is that the second is tangible.
     
  12. Jerseycitysteve

    Jerseycitysteve Guest

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    The "Manassas ***clowns" would make a good name for a professional sports team.

    I commend you for your meeting at the city council. That's how to do it. The cowboys were wearing their white hats.:thumbsup:
     
  13. Slinger646

    Slinger646 King of Sling

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    Way to kick ass guys!! Wish I could have been there with yall!
     
  14. PVanCleave

    PVanCleave

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  15. SelfDefender207

    SelfDefender207

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    Mr. VanCleave, Who would I contact about being a paying memeber of VCDL?
     
  16. TScottW99

    TScottW99 Bird Catcher

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    Here you go.... http://www.vcdl.org/static/join.html
     
  17. Tvov

    Tvov

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    Hmm... You folks are allowed to carry at a meeting like that? That makes me want to check on Connecticut gun laws. I was under the assumption that in CT during public "official" meetings, guns are not allowed to be carried at the meeting. Actually, that might be covered by rules regarding carrying in town and state buildings, which means you can't (as far as I am aware).

    Interesting thread!
     
  18. vafish

    vafish

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    Yes, as long as it's not held on school grounds or in a court house.
     
  19. longwatch2k1

    longwatch2k1

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    As one of the Tonys 7 I just wanted to thank Philip and VCDL and everyone who showed up monday night. It was greatly appreciated and I was really impressed at the turnout and the very effective speakers for the cause.
     
  20. PVanCleave

    PVanCleave

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    No need to thank me. Wild horses couldn't have kept me away. :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse:

    I had to laugh when I got there because Dennis O'Connor, who is working down in Tidewater, had called me earlier that day to say he just didn't see how he could do an 7 hour round trip and get to work the next day.

    I told him I understood, but in the back of my mind I was betting that wild horses couldn't keep him away either. :thumbsup: