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Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by El Viajero, Aug 3, 2019.
It's about time...
You'll have a LONG wait....
They're looking at red dots. I would not expect the Delta Point Pro to be the one approved.
The G19 is the best selling Glock in the USA.
Especially at my house..This one is sitting next to me right now.
Have one just like it on my night stand (19X) plus the G19.5 I just bought
Twenty years late, but welcome to the party SS... just goes to show, even a bureaucratic federal department can eventually get it right given enough time and dollars to throw at an issue.
Yeah, they do like to waste money in .gov unfortunately. Regardless of whether or not Sig was a good choice for the military, I remember to comment that for all the money wasted on 'testing' they could have outfitted every soldier with his/her own G19. Not to start a Sig vs. Glock thread, but the Glock has already been proven to be an excellent sidearm for military and police. You don't need to 'test' it as it's already been tested in the field. Slap a MS on it and save the taxpayers some cash.
I am fine with agencies picking whatever they feel they need, and don't take it as a major victory or major loss regarding what firearm brand is selected.
What I do get baffled by is the media. NYPD and former SS quote:
“With a 9 millimeter, you could fire [a bullet] out of a 4-inch barrel and you’re going to get 1200 feet and change per second,” Minguez said. Yet with “a .38 Special or a .357, they need a much longer barrel to get to optimum velocity – whose top is mid-to-low 800 feet"
I see 4" barrels routinely delivering 1,300 to well over 1,400 f/s for 357SIG. Sure, .38 Special out of a 4" barrel my yield an anemic 900 f/s, but NOT 357 SIG or .357 Magnum! I don't recall anybody suggesting the Secret Service switch to .38 Special or small J-frames...
I like 9mm, but it does surprise me a bit that after all the debacle about penetrating windshields and fuss in Miami, that we go back to 9mm. AND a 9mm that is far more advanced to expand than in the old Miami shootout days... but this improved expansion of modern rounds can be a detriment for penetrating more solid targets.
I guess if I were SS, I would want a round that may have over-penetration risks over one that under-penetrated. Clearly they didn't ask me! I love 9mm, but for the Secret Service? Perhaps they are thinking a PS90 5.7 with armor piercing rounds as a complementary tool means 9mm is fine. Who knows? But I am absolutely certain that in the same bullet weights 357SIG is way faster than 9mm. That much is a given... Not saying "better", but it is absolutely able to be much faster! It certainly isn't slower, as the article suggests.
I have read through the thread but did not see if anyone mentioned what round is issued to the Secret Service. I would think HST or Gold Dots. Maybe it is classified. if not it probably should be. The less our enemy know the better.
I would bet it is cost. Probably the same reason lots of LE departments are running back to 9mm. Yes, bullet design has been the flag they're waving to justify their decision but I'm still betting it's cost. 9mm is cheap, especially compared to .357 Sig.
They get destroyed..
The number of shots the secret service shoots in anger in a decade is likely almost nothing. The cost of cheap guns and ammo make training cheaper. Maybe they will go to 38 special out of a smith model 10 next..
I know my sig 229 in 357 sig is not going anywhere.. i trust it.
Maybe police depts can switch to a high point in 380 to show how evolved they are.
How ironic would it be if the Secret Service switches, and a year later needed to take out a threat driving a pickup truck. The very nice, beautifully expanding 9mm ammo then subsequently fails to penetrate the truck's doors and windows and incapacitate the driver, and then results in an uproar about needing a better penetrating round like 10mm or 357SIG to allow for better barrier penetration. Miami all over again.
I like 9mm, and I feel the round is perfectly suited for what I need (I am not anti-9!). But for the President and others being protected, I can certainly envision people with wearable body armor, people in cars or behind barriers, and other scenarios that would be a challenge for handguns in general, and more so for 9mm.
Am I the only one that kinda wants to see the top tier of our SWAT/SRT/SS/Marshals, etc. be comfortable handling and shooting a strong caliber proficiently (no whimpering about 10mm being too strong, etc.)? I don't think it is for everyone, but the best of the best should be able to manage a round with kick. As I noted earlier, perhaps this is only one prong of the strategy, and they have 5.7 armor piercing also tucked in their jackets to thwart more hardened targets. Who knows?
That's also my guess, along with another GT member's comment that standardization throughout government agencies could very well be another. From the military to federal LEO the trend is to standardize caliber, with some leeway given to selection of platforms. Cost and uniformity.
The 9mm will share the same dynamics of barrier penetration as the 357sig as they are the same diameter bullet. The issue of barrier penetration becomes and issue when we compare a 9mm/.357 bullet to say a .45acp bullet through auto body metal. The 9mm/357 bullet tends to defeat more layers than the larger .45 bullet. I reference the Texas DPS shooting as an example. This is not to suggest the .45acp is a bad round, only that penetration dynamics differ from that of the smaller/faster rounds.
As far as 9mm vs. .357sig ballistics, similar weight bullets tend to have similar depths of penetration in test media as well as in bodies so it's not an issue.
I may be wrong about this but aren't there handguns a secondary weapon?
I am pretty sure they have some very cool short barreled rifle's under there coats, or in close proximity to the President.
These Cats have some firepower, and not just the kind that poke holes.
No disagreement, but as we see work to create rounds that expand very well in humans for 9mm, it reduces the ability to penetrate deeply upon hard contact. Body armor versus an expanding 9mm round versus ball ammo illustrates the issue. Modern ammo isn't designed for windshields or armor, it is designed for a thin fabric over ballisitic gelatin (to approximate shots directly into humans, and it does a fantastic job of this "clothed human" test, both in the lab and in real life!).
9mm improved from the old days as a defensive round due to predictable expansion. But that expansion is NOT optimized for first contact with a solid object (sheet metal, body armor, plywood, etc.). It expands and pancakes, which minimizes further penetration. I am not knocking the round (and I choose 9mm for my self-defense!), but for an entity that is HIGHLY likely to be dealing with cars, people in body armor, etc., it flies in the face of all the reasons Miami gave us for better penetration.
Just noting that the opinions and choices have completely flip-flopped over the last few decades. "Better expanding ammo" is not simultaneously "better penetrating ammo". What they will use now may actually prove to be inferior to the ammo that failed to meet the needs in Miami in that application!
I am not saying that should or should not be the objective, just that the whole decision process seems to lack consistent logic and decision criteria! It seems to revolve on fleeting whims and shifting leadership. Today, a cheaper round that works well on humans is great. Tomorrow, we may be saying "they couldn't neutralize a threat hiding behind a sheet of plywood in a horse trailer!". Times change. Justification changes. I am fine with any of it!
A couple/few points to consider;
Body armor will defeat both 9mm and 357sig respectively. The SS has other methods to defeat body armor. I'll leave it at that.
Modern rounds (9mm or 357sig) have the ability to defeat barriers as well as expand (often after defeating those barriers). It isn't one or the other. I know that Gold Dot has a very good reputation for barrier penetration as one example.
A 9mm is capable of penetrating 2 inches of plywood at several hundred yards. Penetration through barriers is not an area that either the 9mm or 357sig lack.
Another consideration that I don't think has been touched on yet is capacity. IIRC, the Sig 229 has a capacity of 12+1 (I believe I'm correct on that). A Glock 19 of course has a capacity of 15+1. Three round increase per magazine. Assuming they carry two spare mags that is an increase of 9 rounds total per agent. A 25% increase in carried capacity is not insubstantial. Thus a SS team now has a 25% increase in firepower in the duty sidearm. In a round that is softer shooting for faster and more accurate follow up shots that has demonstrated excellent penetration characteristics (barrier and non-barrier).
As I mentioned earlier, a wise decision on the part of the SS.
You know that anywhere a vehicle is a threat, there are guys with long guns right? If you think SS is out walking around protecting the president with only 9mm handguns, you're out of your mind.
Also, this has nothing to do with SWAT/SRT/SS/Marshals whimpering about stout recoil. If you can shoot a 10MM, 357, .40 etc well, you will shoot 9mm even better. Hits are what matters. And in those roles, handguns are usually secondary.