US Secret Service Going To 9mm Glocks...

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by El Viajero, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. ottomatic

    ottomatic

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    Sarcasm?
     
  2. bac1023

    bac1023

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    Not at all

    Most my autos are 9mm
     
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  3. DeuceRooster

    DeuceRooster

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    Excellent question I’d be curious to know as well.
     
  4. Lumber31

    Lumber31

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    Really?! The .357 Sig has no advantage over the 9mm ballistically?
    So they are basically saying the .38 Special has no advantage over the .357 magnum?!!
    Have these people not used these various calibers / cartridges “in the field” on numerous animals?? What they say “on paper” or electronic ballistics does NOT always work out in the real world!!!
    I can tell you there IS a real difference!! Even when it comes to a different bullet, in the same cartridge, even in the lowly .22 LR. Does new bullet technology improve the 9MM, Yes. But that same technology also makes other calibers much more effective as well!! The only advantage the “new” 9mm has over most other handgun calibers is capacity.
    One has to choose between the capacity of the 9mm handgun vs the same size handgun and the “incapacity power” of the more powerful round with slightly less capacity?!! To each their own.....
    I wish you the best of luck with what ever you choose. I just encourage everyone to carry the weapon of their choice to protect themselves or others when bad things come for them.
     
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  5. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    Guy says the Glock has faster follow up shops than a SA Sig. I don’t think so.
     
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  6. rfd339

    rfd339 Silver Member

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    You mean..pistol with cork and string don't you, because bb guns will be said and proved to dangerous for civies....lol


    View: https://youtu.be/mrAwb9ptu9U
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  7. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    That is essentially correct. Penetration depths for comparable weight rounds are very close depending of the specific design of the bullets. Expansion diameters are virtually identical, again, for same/similar specific designs and weights of bullets with the exception that in some cases the 9mm has a larger final expansion that the .357sig.

    This is a meaningless term similar to 'knock-down power', 'stopping power', 'kinetic energy dump'. They are all terms used by gun rags and psuedo-science articles.

    But they haven't. A comparable weight 9mm and .357sig of similar design (such as both test samples are Gold Dots or both are HST etc.) get comparable depths of penetration and expansion and again the 9mm often has greater expansion.

    This is incorrect.

    First, I'm not emotionally invested in any service caliber or cartridge. I've carried them all at one time or another. I like them all and had a lot of fun with each as well as carry each in a duty and/or off-duty capacity. I had a Glock 32 that I liked rather well. But it's best feature was the ability to be converted to either a .40 and/or a 9mm Glock.

    Capacity isn't the only advantage. There are numerous advantages to 9mm;

    • Capacity
    • Lower recoil/muzzle flip
    • Faster follow up shots
    • Less muzzle blast/flash
    • Not as loud, particularly indoors
    • Less wear and tear on the service weapon
    • Wider availability of ammunition
    • Ammunition is at least and/or less than half the price
    • Easier to fire one-handed which is particularly useful if you've been injured
    And I'm sure I've listed other advantages in other threads over the last 20+ years here on GT but I just woke up.

    Let's take a look at some data from the links on the first page. Let's look at Speer Gold Dots from both the 357sig and 9mm.

    357sig 125 grain @ 1375 = 13.2 inches of penetration and a recovered diameter of .67
    9mm 124+P @ 1141 = 16.8 inches and .52. So in this case the 357sig did manage a bigger diameter but penetrated 3.6 inches less. Although the 357sig did meet the minimum standard of 12 inches, I'd prefer the slightly smaller projectile that continued another 3+ inches damaging tissue. Particularly if a barrier was involved, like a limb. However, if we want to talk about similar depths of penetration we can use the same 357sig test bullet vs the Barnes 115 TAC-XPD+P at a 'lowly' 1043 fps yet penetrated almost identical distance (actually slightly deeper) yet expanded to .70 caliber. So at almost identical depths of penetration I'd prefer the one that expanded the largest while ALSO having the least amount of recoil/muzzle flip so that I can quickly and accurately fire additional rounds in the same amount of time. Simple physics that you can put more 9mm rounds accurately on target in X amount of time than you can 357sig. I'd rather have more rounds on target in X time that less rounds. If I only had time for one round I'd prefer one that either penetrated deeper and/or expanded bigger.

    Now, various rounds in various tests can be placed against each other but the ultimate result is that as far as terminal ballistics is concerned, they are (within the margin of error) virtually identical in performance. Now the proponent of 357sigs will bring up velocity and kinetic energy. Let's address velocity first. As I've stated numerous times, a bullet needs ONLY enough velocity to leave the barrel, travel to the target and perform as designed. Any excess is simply a waste and negatively affects accurate, fast follow up shots (which are more important than an extra 150-200 fps in velocity). Kinetic energy at handgun velocity levels is fairly meaningless. I understand some can't accept this statement. No apology offered. The ammo companies know, and have stated that it isn't until you get up into rifle velocities that kinetic energy starts to mean something. The FBI and most major L.E. agencies select ammo on criteria OTHER than velocity such as penetration through barriers (as one example). And a bad guy shot with a round that goes 1100 fps or one that goes 1400 fps isn't going to notice the difference.

    However, if one wishes to believe there is a difference between 250 fpe and 500 fpe, as it relates to the effect of terminal ballistics, by all means continue to base your ammunition selection on that belief. I prefer a round that offers adequate penetration through barriers, fast and accurate follow up shots, more on-board ammunition and cheaper/wider range of available ammunition. As for 357sig, although I've owned them and like them, there is a reason they never really caught on in mainstream L.E.. I've detailed many of those reasons above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  8. kahrcarrier

    kahrcarrier FAHRENHEIT

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    I always find the switching up of handgun platforms and calibers among these agencies to be interesting.

    It seems they do it quite often, maybe more often than necessary? I'm sure it is at a pretty good expense when they do. {taxpayer dollars.}

    Even our State Police have changed guns pretty often in the last several years.
     
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  9. Ahmid

    Ahmid CLM

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    I'll be looking for some Secret Service 357 Sigs at my LGS..
     
  10. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    Some perhaps, but not most. It is a huge hassle on training every time a switch is made because they have to train and qualify each and every Officer/Deputy/Trooper/Agent each time. Sometimes a change has to be made if the duty weapon is found to have an issue or abnormal breakage. Sometimes a new Chief or Sheriff comes in and wants to change for 'whatever' reason. But usually once the choice is made it's set for years. In my (almost) 30 years we've switched three platforms. We switched from S&W revolvers to the Beretta 9mm and then years later to the Glock 21 which we've had for nearly 20 years. Most of the agencies in our region have had the same platform for a decade or more with the exception of one major one that started having issues with the newly adopted platform and switched.
     
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  11. unit1069

    unit1069

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    Then if you only did have one round you'd prefer, say, .45ACP to 9mm. Is that correct?
     
  12. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    I'd be happy with either one. I carry a 45acp on duty and a 9mm off-duty.

    While a .45 'can' expand slightly larger, the 9mm 'can' have slightly better barrier penetration. Neither puts the other head-n-shoulders above the other so I'm fine either way. However, given the choice, I'd prefer a Glock 17 as a duty weapon rather than the Glock 21. This should not be taken to mean I don't like the Glock 21 because I do. And the Glock 21 has been an excellent platform with some of our training pistols having over 300K rounds through them. So, I'm happy either way.
     
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  13. shadowlands

    shadowlands

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    I want a Glock 19.
     
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  14. unit1069

    unit1069

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    Does anyone know what the rank-and-file Secret Service agents feel about the switch?
     
  15. Rock2411

    Rock2411

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    I don't know but I can tell you from experience that it'll probably vary from person to person. We switched from P229 in 357 Sig to a G22 and some in my agency loved it and some hated it. I can tell you that when we switched a couple of people's qual scores went down but the vast majority improved.
     
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  16. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

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    I gotta say that I'm really glad I picked up the G19.5 last weekend. Just a great platform. I installed the Ameriglo Pro i-dot night sights this morning and really like them.
     
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  17. shadowlands

    shadowlands

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    It's on my list for sure. But I just bought my new G43 and G26 Gen5, so I can't right now. I need to build up my bank more and then pounce.
     
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  18. skyfall

    skyfall

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    I am glad that I have my two G45's,all I need to do is decide on which night sights to buy.I have not read of any agency issuing this pistol,any info? What sights does the Secret Service use?
     
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  19. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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  20. reniram

    reniram

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    Don't blame you. Probably the best all around handgun out there. If I could only have one the 19 would be the one.