Unionization

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by NRA_guy, Mar 3, 2010.

  1. NRA_guy

    NRA_guy Unreconstructed

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    Here is a pretty good chronology of what unions bring to the manufacturing industry:

    First come higher wages and better benefits, but then comes loss of jobs because the work can be done cheaper elsewhere.

    That is why the auto manufacturers built plants in the right-to-work Deep South.

    And unionization via card check is what will eventually kill those jobs---just like it did most of the old Detroit auto jobs.

    SOURCE: LINK
     
  2. ysr_racer

    ysr_racer

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    Way too long to read, but:

    These three kids are sitting around talking, and the first kid says, "My dad is so fast, he can shoot an arrow down range and run down there to see where it lands".

    The second little kid says, "That's nothing, my dad is so fast, when he goes to sleep at night and turns off the lights, he can be in bed before the room gets dark".

    The third little kid says, "I got all you guys beat. My dad is in the Teamsters. He's so fast that when he gets off of work at 4:30, he's home by 2:15".


    Brought to you by the non union workers of America. Unlike you, I work for a living.
     

  3. 03 Jarhead

    03 Jarhead Stiff Member

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  4. tbhracing

    tbhracing Senior Member

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    Just scanning over the article, I dont know if the unions are to blame. I will go re-read it though.
     
  5. zeke66

    zeke66

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    There has to be a balance. The pendulum swings from decade to decade. A hundred years ago, the wealth was held in very, very few hands. Working people worked usually six twelve-hour days a week and barely made enough to live on. Unions played a major role in creating a large middle class. Now you can say what you want, but the middle class is the very glue that holds our modern society together.

    I'm not necessarily pro-union. I'm not really against them either. From sometime after WWII until the early eighties, unions got waaay too powerful, creating situations like the OP was referring to. The pendulum has now swung the other way and the middle class is shrinking. That is not a good thing.
     
  6. frank4570

    frank4570

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    All unions have ever done is allow poor people to steal money from rich people who desperately need it.
     
  7. flatag

    flatag Must have tacos

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    The union will harrass the hard worker and protect the lazy worker. Therefore I have no use for them.
     
  8. Mushinto

    Mushinto Master Member

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    This says it all.

    Unions were and are necessary, but if they get too much power they can be very destructive. They have gotten (bought) too much influence among the politicians

    There indeed has to be a balance.

    ML
     
  9. 220-9er

    220-9er

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    Don't forget the influence of organized crime. The mafia used their pension funds as their piggy bank and also to extort money from the businesses that were unionized. Robber Barrons on both sides of the fence.
     
  10. Trigun

    Trigun

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    Unions once did serve a purpose. Especially in the days of limited communication and difficulty in moving ones whole family from one area of the country to another. But now they have outlived their usefulness yet refuse to die. They just keep promising more and more until something goes bust. But at least in the private sector there is an understanding that if they ask for too much then the company could go broke if it can't remain competitive and then everyone loses. That's not true in the public sector. Most union members now work for the government. They represent a lot of white collar bureaucrats. There is no such balance in the way they operate. The only thing to go bankrupt is the federal government. They strike to get higher wages from you the taxpayer. So unions now lobby for your taxes to increase. That's why SEIU thugs are out confronting small government tea party members. They do not want smaller government. It is complete absurdity that government employees can even have a union and we will follow Greece if it continues.
     
  11. rboatright

    rboatright

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    And both WITH and WITHOUT collective barganing manufacturing jobs race towards where labor is cheap and environmental regulations are thin.

    Is the union to blame for Ravenswood closing? or is Malaysian and Chinese aluminum smelters operating with limited environmental oversight and sub one dollar an hour workers responsible?

    If you want to blame someone, perhaps the person to blame would be the free-traders. No union ever suggested that we not charge tariffs on foreign made goods which are made using workers paid below the poverty level.

    Re-arrange the federal government's income structure, re-establish tarriffs at a reasonable level and you will see manufacturing jobs return to offset the cost of transportation. What role would organized labor play in that? Well, the corporations aren't going to be happy that the cost of a pair of socks, or a tone of aluminum just doubled. Wally world won't be happy. That kind of lobbying and organization should COME from labor.

    Of course, the consumers won't be happy either, except that they'll be happy they have jobs. -- You can't maximize two variables at the same time.

    It's like the old engineering saying: Cheap, Fast, Good. Pick any 2.
     
  12. CAcop

    CAcop

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    Keep in mind unionized workers are a very small part of the workforce, less than 13% last numbers I saw. That means that 87% are non union workers.

    This town's problem is the same problem my town has: it is a one industry town. When that industry goes away so does most of the town.

    As for jobs leaving to cheaper labor areas it is going to happen if there are unions or not. In my area manufacturing has gone away because a 1 bedroom apartment goes for $1,000 a month. Even if you room with somebody you still need $6,000 a year for rent, $18,000 a year for a salary if you want to have 1/3 of your gross go to housing. About $8.65 an hour to live like a kid out of high school with his first job. You get older, start a family, a two bedroom looks even better. The way I see it bossman better be paying you $25.96 an hour. Unless you want to be a family of four in a one bedroom and people on welfare and section 8 can do better.

    Now take a look at Mexico. What's the hourly wage down there? The latest plant to leave my area shipped it's operations down there. And they weren't even unionized.

    If you don't like unions fine. Just don't make up stuff.
     
  13. 9mmXRAY

    9mmXRAY IDPA MW2 GSSF

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    Here is something bad about unions... my buddy is in one for his job he's had for over 10 years... but he's whats called "Topped out" meaning he is making the maximum amount that job will ever pay... anywhere on the planet. He could work there 10 more years and still make the same amount but he will have job security as long as he does his job... and for what he does he honestly gets paid too much as it is now and complains about his job when another guy somewhere else is doing the EXACT job at the same company and making 40,000$ less a year for doing it...
     
  14. Taykaim

    Taykaim NRA Member

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    I'm probably seeing the issue far too simplistically, as I have never worked in a union, but I am fairly well educated in history, especially the last several hundred years.

    It seems to me that unions as a whole should act very much like an immune system, working to gain power when the balance of power gets too far away from the people doing the work, and subsiding when the balance of power is in a stable equilibrium.

    The problem, is that humanity appears incapable of creating an organization that will not at some point become more about gaining more power, than executing the original purpose of said organization*. So, to return to my earlier metaphor, as a country, we have an autoimmune** disease. As long as unions have too much power, and an unwillingness/inability to realize this or change, I don't see things getting much better.




    *See exhibit A: The US Federal Government current scope of power vs limits spelled out in US Constitution.
    **http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune_disease
     
  15. Chad Landry

    Chad Landry Cajunator® CLM

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    It would be nice if unions stuck to their original intended purpose. Unfortunately, they're in a position to take more and more power from the guys who took the risk and invested the money.

    Unions have killed a lot of America's workforce by being too greedy, at the behest of their members.

    It's a shame that the members don't see this.
     
  16. DaGroaner

    DaGroaner Anti-Socialist

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    I remember UAW guys joking about how UAW stood for U Ain't Working. That joke is probably not as funny to them now as it used to be.
     
  17. Dennis in MA

    Dennis in MA Get off my lawn

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    I'm a chapter and a half into 5 Big Lies About American Business by Medved. Fascinating history of the anti-business movement and how pervasive it is today.

    I guess what I'm saying is: A business moved in. Union or not, there is no more business and it goes away. The town will go back to being a ghost-town as it was before the boom.

    MAYBE without a union they could be competitive - or have the $ set aside to retool for something else. Maybe not. But this is part of life. Sucks to be them, but the good Lord giveth and the good Lord taketh away - blessed be the name of the Lord.
     
  18. Trigun

    Trigun

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    If we want to blame someone, we can easily blame our government. Our government taxes and regulates business to death and then has the nerve to blame them for leaving. Just as someone who abuses their wife will then blame them for leaving. Our government can't seem to comprehend that it is basically a business and must compete with the rest of the world. It jacks up taxes, destroys anything that looks like a smoke stack, and regulates the piss out of everything else. Then it has the nerve to cry when industry fades away and takes their wealthy tax payers with them. The government doesn't even suggest bringing industry back to the US. Those are 'dirty' jobs. We can just keep putting up Wal-Marts and filling pot holes to provide jobs. We don't need to get our hands dirty producing an actual tangible product. So they think. If government allowed our goods to be competitive then free-trade would be great. No need for a tariff war. No need to artificially place constraints on other countries. Just unleash this country.
     
  19. ordersman

    ordersman Still Reloading

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    this times 1000000000
     
  20. glocknick

    glocknick

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    i am so sick of these unions and our idiotic politicians destroying our country while claming to help