Underwood 357sig Under Rated Velocity

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Pilot172, Dec 11, 2019.

  1. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    Wow! Where does this come from? Do you realize that the people to whom you speak have more experience in their little finger than you do in your entire body? I thought recently you may be coming around but it turns out you are unteachable. I've seen that plenty. Whatever. Your poor, misinformed choices don't affect me or mine.

    This just continues to be laborious and you are obtuse. Such as:

    1) What is your definition of "performance" and what is not being understood?

    2) The 9mm is being claimed by you by others to be just as good as what compared to what?

    Sadly, you're still fixated on energy and the Laws of Physics, both topics you know nothing about. It's painfully obvious you have zero understanding on how bullets wound and even less knowledge on a bullet's interaction with tissue. ZERO.

    You still have not answered why you recommend heavier, larger caliber bullets for tougher creatures even though they have less energy. Again, intellectual dishonesty on your behalf.

    Why don't you carry Glaser? Immediate and total energy dump! Violent explosion of the projectile! High performance! Physics in action! Why do you choose slow-to-dump hollow points when you know how important energy dump is?

    Calling us trolls which you yourself have become? That’s rich. Why don't you teach us misguided children on the concept of energy? We obviously do not understand and for you it is basic. What is it you understand that we don't? Please be detailed in your explanation for clarity. A revelation in terminal ballistics would be an exciting topic of conversation.

    And don't accuse me of being a closet 9mm fanboy! I own five handguns in that caliber. I carry one every day.
     
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  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    The only fanboy, butt hurt poster here is you rail. Energy dump, lightening bolt isn't physics its opinion & opinion NOT based on real gunfight data. Just sayin, you know, throwing rocksi in glass houses thing.:okie:
     
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  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    100%. If ine chooses a 9mm, Imo, ammo choice is more critical than larger calibers or more modern where bullet design was always upfront, every service caliber is represented on my carry permit. I am fine with all because I can shoot any given platform well enough to land good hits fast.
    I let platform decide. In subcompact, 9mm wins, more ammo & easier to shoot. In my 10+1 state, ammo cap is pretty meanigless, so in a full size gun, I am fine with 40 or 45. In a compact, I can actually do well with all of them too & even 10+1, I can still find a compact 45 if I want. I just know any increase on so called stopping power is very minimal. More about good bullets going where they need to. Anything that compromises that, should be left in the safe.
     
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  4. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I began trying to steer clear of this after I'd been working for a while as a firearms trainer for my agency, classes attended by other agencies and some occasional non-LE classes I was teaching.

    It not only risks degrading the confidence of someone in their cherished weapon choices, or their mandated equipment, but it can distract from putting necessary emphasis on user skills.

    I made sure folks started seeing that I was able to carry (and often did) a variety of choices, including some of the more popular ones the regualr folks might be bringing in for quals or training. I'd use whatever they were using for many demo purposes, so they didn't get the impression I was just using some personal high-end or "special" weapon. They needed to see that everything we were teaching and requiring of them could be done with whatever they were carrying, using, had chosen, etc.

    I carried one or another full-size or compact duty weapon for an ample number of years during my career, on & off-duty. Toward the end of my career I found myself much more often choosing to carry subcompact pistols and 5-shot snub revolvers. Yes, that meant making sure they got plenty of use while working the range, since shooting and managing smaller handguns can require more of the shooter. Convenience comes with a cost, and that cost often has to be paid in extra effort and harder work. ;)

    My personal subcompact & compact caliber choices include 9, .40 & .45ACP. My lower end caliber choices are .38SPL & .380ACP. The .38SPL & .380ACP options are for the convenience of pocket holster carry, for the typical days/nights when I don't feel like wearing a belt gun. (Too many years of heavier IWB/OWB holsters, as well as having a vest pushing down on gear, left their mark in the way of unpredictable, but easily aggravated hot spots on my hips and glutes.)

    I'll still carry .357MAG every once in a while, but carrying .44MAG & .45Colt are listed under the "very seldom" heading nowadays. That's even though all those years of being an avid handloader, as well as having been able to spend a lot of my hobby/spare money to buy very low priced factory ammo, let me indulge in shooting more tens of thousands of heavy revolver loads than I'll ever be able to remember.

    You know, I've mentioned it before, but it's worth mentioning again ...

    When I often had people come and ask me to recommend both duty and off-duty weapons & calibers for them, instead of pretending to know what might be best for them, I guided them to try examples on our range. Also, while they might not be familiar with some of the guns and calibers, I was usually quite familiar with them, and their abilities ... and their interest in practicing their skills.

    That meant that while I could obviously offer to work with them to improve their skills (which I always offered), if they were going to a gun and/or caliber which would offer more felt recoil effect (or much louder muzzle blast), I also had a pretty good idea whether they'd be willing to do what might be required in order to adjust their skills to effectively using that new choice (especially over the long term).

    I'd much rather have them spend some time trying out what they were considering, or as close to it as was possible, usually meaning dipping into our training weapon inventory or using my own guns, or borrowing one from another instructor, etc. I wanted them to not just fire some rounds downrange, but to try whatever they were thinking about in some various drills, or a qual course-of-fire, so they could compare it against what they were already familiar with using in the same circumstances.

    I don't shill guns or ammo, but I do like to see folks figure out how to best make their own informed decisions about their gear. ;)
     
  5. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Agree. When I post an upcoming class I always post my number with “If you have any questions please feel free to ask” above it.
    My number one question answered is always “What kind of gun do you recommend for (me)?”
    I would always answer “I don’t recommend any guns, but I do recommend shooting different pistols in different calibers before you decide.”
    I would then recommend a shop that rented guns.
    And i always allow them to try any of mine while at the range if they want. The main reason I’ve always kept a .38 snubbie and a G-19.
    I’d probably be surprised to find out how many 19’s I’ve sold for Glock...


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  6. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    You wouldn’t include then.45 in there?

    Also, are you saying there’s more many more ammunition options for the .40 than the 9?


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  7. 0311INF

    0311INF

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    In a comfortable carry size pistol that holds say 12 or more rounds, I can't seem to find anything in .45 ACP. Plus as you state, a 5 inch barrel is preferable. I just can't tote that around all day.

    As to ammo options in .40, for one the typical grain weights can be found in 135 all the way up to 200. Additionally, the older cup and core style JHP rounds are more viable in .40 than 9mm. So I dont mean that one can't find 9mm in all sorts of offerings, but most are not worth much. The. 40 (and .45) have more options for quality reliable SD carry ammo.
     
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  8. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Does it have to hold 12? The g30, xd45c, both only slightly larger than a g23/19, 10-11+1.
    I disagree on older or newer cup/core bullets better in one v the other. Yes really old jhp designs in 9mm might be an issue, but no decent factory load is loaded with them. The 40 was designed around the modern jhp. The 45acp not so much but, the good thing about 45 is even with a poor jhp, it does decently well imo. Even with solids, FP please, it crushes more tissue. So if stuck in a state with no jhp, I would run a 45 with wnlfp solids.
     
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  9. 0311INF

    0311INF

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    I dont know, maybe it's just me, but the compact. 45 doesn't seem to do much that the slimmer framed .40 can't also do. Compromises seem more obvious with the .45 carry pistols, like the G30 two-finger grip and "chunkiness."

    As to the ammo. The older designs of JHP are all over the board as far as effectiveness but the one consistent thing is that 9mm isn't on par. Not that I carry old ammo as a rule or anything. But the standard cheap JHP from Federal or Remington in .40 and .45 seems to be fairly decent and can be had almost anywhere.
     
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  10. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    I grew up as a hunter and target shooter. As a kid I read everything Elmer Keith wrote. Many people try to attribute the same theories to the two.

    For SD we should look to a bullet that penetrates deep enough, within the parameters, cause wounding etc. Personally, from the shootings I have seen, studied and have interview people about a round such as the light fast 357 magnum that has some fragmentation as well as deep penetration gives us the best of both worlds. The fragmentation give secondary wounding causing more bleeding and pain. Which, since most people quit fighting because they want to is what we want, absolute lethality takes a distant back seat.

    For hunting big, dangerous game we want just about the exact opposite. Not so important for defense, but in game animals we do not want lots of bloodshot meat, we want a nice neat hole. Ole Elmer talked about this at length. That is why many of us like a big, heavy, wide, slow solid for hunting. We know the big heavy solid penetrates deeper and straighter.

    :deadhorse:
     
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  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Agree, a dbl stack 45 will always be a bit fatter. I really like my xd45c, feels the same in the holster as my g32/19. My 1911 alloy Comm is very slim/light, better than any compact plastic 9, but you have to be happy with 8+1, which with a spare mag I am.
    Agree on 9mm, ammo choice is more important if relying on exPansion & penetration. Why I am just not a fan of 115gr jhp. Some fragmentation is useful, but if the bullet is too light penetration suffers & vitals may not be hit. Since we all know energy dump is mythology.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  12. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    The older .45ACP JHP's needed velocity for expansion, and the 5" barrels helped in that way. The CCI 200gr Flying Ashtray had a very generous cavity mouth, which seemed to generate some reports of pretty good expansion, but it was wide and stubby and some of the older pistols didn't exactly "like" feeding it.

    More modern .45 JHP's have offered us some more consistent expansion, and have been able to do so at lower velocity thresholds, meaning shorter barrels aren't as much of a issue.

    The .45 grip is long in the front-to-back for many folks, making single stacks an easier proposition for them. Double stacks add width to the already existing length required for a grip frame. This is why the Commander-sized 1911 has remained a popular option. The S&W 3rd gen also offered a great balance, especially in the 4513TSW/457 models for folks who wanted compact (3.75" barrel, making is quite similar to the G30/36 barrels), and the 4566/4566TSW (and variants) for those wanting a lightly longer barrel and taller grip height. The SIG P245 was also a nice compromise compact, but it was a bit thicker in the grip, even though a single stack.

    Yep, the 9 has really benefited from better JHP designs. Too bad it couldn't have occurred in the 70's. ;)

    The .40? Well, it was designed (S&W & Winchester project) around a 4" service length barrel (M4006), using an old-style Winchester 180gr JHP that was subsequently marketed as the RA40180HP load (still available today as a budget Ranger offering), and the same bullet was/is used in the USA load. It didn't "need" the increased velocity of the longer barrels, and it allowed some more compact 3.5" barrels to still offer good "ballistic performance". The loss of half an inch of original barrel length didn't seem to be as noticeable as it once was in it's slightly 1 1/2mm larger cousin, the .45ACP.
     
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  13. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    I agree, I used to be a .45 or nothing guy, until I started researching.45 HP’s in short barrels. I found the 27 to be a better compromise as a CCW for me. Everyone’s different.
    I know the premium SD loads are better today than they once were for a short barrel.45, but I still haven’t seen a round that outperforms a .40 in equal (short) barrels. But, I’m here to learn, if someone has one, I’d like to research it.
    I would probably still be content with the .40 even if I had to go to FMJ’s. It’s literally .05” difference and the .40 usually has better capacity, in equal platforms.
    Plus, it’s what I already have.


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  14. Pilot172

    Pilot172

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    I came up with the same conclusion years ago that the 40SW is a better performer than the 45 in short barrels.
     
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