Underwood 357sig Under Rated Velocity

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Pilot172, Dec 11, 2019.

  1. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    There are guns and there are people, learn the difference this us a thread were we are talking about GUNS and CAILBERS. Tactics and training is calling you!
     
  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Rail, it doesn't matter what hand cannon you carry. From a pure theory aspect, you have a simplistic argument going for the 357sig. From a practical, real world argument, it doesn't matter, it is theory. You can spew BS like energy dump, but those that know the truth are laughing. You certainly have a right to your opinion it just has no basis in reality. As long as you spew such things, I will respond. Like it or not. Try this. Instead of studying theory of gel porn, try researching actual gunfights & what happens. You wont because it blows a hole in your armchair theory.
     
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  3. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    So you are going to start carrying deep penetrating FMJ for SD? It's right up your ally, little energy transfer which isn't at all important, deep penetrating and you can use it for practice. Then you will not have to worry about simplistic energy. Those who know the truth are LOL.
     
  4. fredj338

    fredj338

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    You know you have won an argument when the other guy throws out such BS. Where have I ever said one should use FMJ? You are floundering Rail.:drowning: You have only your simplistic energy dump theory when decades of actual shootings prove it doesn't exist but hey, keep treading water.
     
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  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Even back in the service revolver days, the .357MAG wasn't heralded as a service caliber that had a "balance of ballistic performance" for working "best in the greatest variety of situations". It was a hotly loaded medium-bore caliber, but you could get an increasingly wide variety of bullet weights and shapes as time passed.

    Nor was the 125gr JHP Magnum load as widely accepted and heralded as the perfect JHP as some of the gun magazines and books of the time might lead you to believe. There were a lot of users who favored the 110gr JHP load, and many more who still used the 158gr JSP & JHP loads.

    Granted, while the trend was to adopt JHP's, you could still find some users of the original 158gr LSWC load. It was a common load on store shelves.

    Of course, the mid-weight JHP's got a lot of interest, too, meaning the 140-145gr JHP's.

    The .355 load marketed as the .357SIG is basically a 1-trick pony, especially with major maker factory loads. It emulates the velocities that were typically seen when 125gr JHP's were fired from 2 1/2" - 4" revolvers.

    Yes, some of the smaller custom ammo companies offer some faster velocity loads. Well, while 2 1/2" barrels were popular for off-duty & plainclothes, and 4" barrels were handy for duty holsters while seated in cars (for fixed shank, non-swivel holsters), the 6" barreled Magnum service revolvers weren't exactly rare. I saw quite a lot of them, and they could produce some higher velocities than the shorter tubes.

    I always thought that proponents of the .357SIG ought to have pushed the 147gr loads a bit more, making it a bit more versatile, as the 147gr bullet weight comes pretty close to emulating the 158gr Magnum loads in both weight and velocity.

    Have to give the same consideration to their use in urban locations, though, as they might offer the same risks of perforating the intended threats as the older heavy-jacketed 158gr Magnum loads (which were really at home for hunting, alongside the hard cast 158gr LSWC ... or, my older preference for a backwoods load with "punch", being a half-jacketed 160gr LSWC (so no gas check needed) for the fast-moving load to mitigate leading of barrels.

    On the other side of things, since the comparison to the actual .357MAG is being mentioned, the 115gr & 127gr +P+ loads in 9mmP also tread on the heels, velocity-wise, of the lighter bullet Magnum loads ... fired from 2 1/2"-3" revolver barrels.

    The modern proponents of the old-style 115gr +P+ 9's and the newer 127gr +P+ 9's, and 125gr SIG, have a lot more in common than either group might care to acknowledge. The shades of perceived differences aren't really as wide apart as some folks might care to admit. ;)

    Meanwhile, for those private citizen shooters who have a handgunning skillset sufficiently developed and advanced to shoot DA revolvers with control and accuracy, the wider variety of bullet weights and shapes available in the .357MAG still make it both a versatile and a very formidable handgun caliber.

    Sure, you're going to give up magazine reloads and have half the capacity (5-8rd cylinders vs. 10-15rd magazines), and you've got to make sure your fingers don't get in the way of thumb latches, rear cylinder edges or the hot gasses coming out of barrel/cylinder gaps. No doubt.

    However, with the .357MAG you also gain the advantage of more versatility, a better (wider) balance of power, a wider spectrum of ballistic performance and more all-around versatility (bullet weights and designs).

    Of course, that's if you're actually looking to find more variety of optimal choices of balanced ballistic performance and more "hard hitting power", and you aren't limiting yourself to only being able to use a semiauto pistol. ;)

    Sometimes the original is still the best, or at least still pretty damned good.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  6. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    This world will be a lesser place when men like you are no longer around. I wish for that day to be a long time coming.
     
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  7. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    "They all fall to hardball."

    You will most likely miss your target, depositing exactly 0 lb/ft of energy in your target. You would be far more formidable if you would get your rear out from behind that computer and actually shot something.
     
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  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I'm trying, but it doesn't seem like it's getting any easier to remain around as the years accrue. ;)
     
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  9. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    I have made that point on a few occasions but someone always trolls in changing the subject and the point gets lost.

    You are however correct the heavy for caliber 147gr round does come close to the 357 Mag 158gr round. But my point has always been making a comparison to the other service calibers. The 147gr 357 Sig equals the sectional density of the 147gr 9mm, 180gr .40 and 230gr .45. The 357 Sig 147gr has 45% more energy and 225 fps more velocity than the 147gr 9mm. It has 225 fps more velocity than the same SD 180gr .40 and 325 more fps velocity than the same SD 230gr .45. Meaning it offers all the advantages of a heavy for caliber round but with the added advantages of more velocity and more penetrating tissue crushing power. A good balance of weight, power and velocity that optimizes performance.

    Then there are the 115gr 357 Sig rounds with 1500 fps and up velocities
    again outclass the 115gr 9mm and light.45 rounds as well as having more SD and velocity than the light weight 135gr .40. rounds.

    That is why I say the 357 Sig offers exceptional versatility and performance.
     
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  10. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    There isn't any argument to it. You can penetrate really really deeply with your low energy dump FMJ rounds and maybe get lucky hitting that special deep spot that will instantly end the fight before the other guy 5 yards away empties his mag on you. That's your plan isn't it, at least it's what you have always said. Deep Deep Deep
     
  11. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    You can try to mix, match and substitute bullet weight, velocity and "energy" numbers all day & night, but it's not so simple or clear cut when it comes to how things may actually work once you're no longer just looking at tidy numbers on paper (or a screen).

    You seem intent to try and interpret some relationship among the numbers you like to quote as if they're the elements of some easily quantifiable "linear gradient of effectiveness" when it comes to "ballistic performance".

    If it comforts you in your leisurely pursuit of reading about such things? Well, everybody ought to have an enjoyable hobby.

    However, the anticlimactic end result of not quite 60 years of service/defensive handgun ammunition development (think the introduction of Super Vel), including the last 40 years of medical & scientific research in the study of wound ballistics ... is that the more they're all compared outside the lab, meaning in ever growing numbers of actual incidents where they're used, the more they're starting to look more alike than different once the rubber meets the road.

    If "MV" & "ME" numbers are your twin rabbit's foot lucky charms or talismans, by all means continue to go for it. It won't bother, let alone offend, the rest of the gun owners/users who don't see things quite the same way. Nor will it cause the LE/Gov users who are transitioning away from .357SIG any concern.
     
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  12. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Trends and opinions can't be loaded into handguns and used for SD. I was never much for following the herd.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  13. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Gees rail, you must be just beyond teachable. You sound like those glbal warming nuts, of course its arguable, 1000s of gunfights prove no energy dump. Fights are not instantly won be a service caliber mythical energy dump. A fight is not a gel block. A 200# attacker is not a gel block. If you dont destroy vitals the fight continues unless he just wants to give up. Hitting your target isnt luck for some of us, maybe for you, so you need the comfort of the myth of energy dump. So good luck to You, while you slow fire your mighty magnum at 5y while your attacker reaches you & cuts your head off. Shoot more, hypothesis less, you might make it in a real fight, but you energy dump wont win it.
     
  14. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Yep.



    Free country.
     
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  15. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Global warming, myth of energy, gun fights prove no energy, slow fire, hypothesis less! Wow now you really are just reaching aren't you.
     
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    No more than you Rail, btw fixed it above for you. Seriously, how did you come by all this mythology? The one shot stop was debunked back when M&S did their study, what 20y ago? The more current study by Ellifritz I linked, which I am sure you refused to read, also debunks one shot stops. So yes, in your case, total fairy tail of energy dump from a guy who I am thinking really cant shoot, but feels badass carrying his over blown 357sig, which he probably cant hit a target at 5y in less than 5sec, but carry on, you are always good for a laugh with statements like "lightening bolt affect" & "hitting vitals doesn't matter". Gees, you must be a millennial. :help:
     
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  17. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Might want to check with some more "experts" before you start debunking one shot stops and continue with more of your exaggerated off topic ramblings!


    View: https://youtu.be/4MRHEZACXPY
     
  18. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    Hate to be the bearer of bad news but he was shot with a 9mm from a Forest Service guy. Try again.
     
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  19. fredj338

    fredj338

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    So you got one, maybe, yep energy dump for sure.:crazy: If you have the balls to admit you are wrong, read this stuff. I've trained with guys that have been there & done that. None of them talk about caliber as long as it is 9mm & up. They ALL KNOW shot placement & crushing vital tissue stops fights. Energy dump is a fairy tale. Pay particular attention to the last one where a 120# woman takes a direct chest hit from the mighty 357amg & not only survives but stays in the fight & kills her attacker. Energy dump at work right, always wins the fight right?
    https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/10/5-gunfighting-myths-debunked-massad-ayoob/
    https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/stopping-power-one-doctors-point-view/
    https://firearmsnation.com/deconstructing-gunfights-jared-reston/
    https://shootingthebull.net/blog/357-magnum-check-center-mass-hit-check-instant-stop-er/
    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/when-six-is-not-enough-myths-of-the-self-defense-revolver/
    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/the-center-mass-myth-and-ending-a-gunfight-triggernometry/
    https://www.policeone.com/officer-s...tacy-lims-story-of-survival-J2ay86axRN55pvP8/
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  20. fredj338

    fredj338

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    BTW, did you watch the video? The guy actually sits up after falling down from the surprise of being shot, not any energy dump. Funny your example seems to have missed the instant so called stop, he sat up, which means he could have stayed in the fight.
     
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