Underwood 357sig Under Rated Velocity

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Pilot172, Dec 11, 2019.

  1. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Economics, political correctness and easier to train recoil sensitive people are the main reasons the 9mm is gaining in popularity with LEAs. Example the FBI went with the 9mm then promptly passed on the more powerful, proven and effective 125gr and 115gr rounds and chose the mouse fart least recoiling 147gr round for the girls behind the desks to train with.

    Then all the LEAs saw a way to rationalize going with the 9mm and save some money doing it.

    Next comes the fan boy herd all jacked up because the FBI and LEAs are moving more to the 9mm since the FBI wasted millions of dollars trying to justify such a lowly round.

    Next up the range owners, instructors, LGSs, ammo companies and Lucky Gunner all jump on the 9mm band wagon with $$$ signs in their eyes ready to cash in on their big seller. It's why Glock has recently made 10 different 9mm models without any other handgun caliber offered.


    All this started simply because the FBI admittedly stated that it went with the 9mm 147gr round simply because it "was the best round for THEM" and the fanboys only heard "the best" . The average civilian and the FBI having different "needs" seems irrelevant to the fanboys and the money makers. Funny actually, but then there's a 9 sucker born every minute.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    When doesn't light & fast work? Maybe the most infamous failure is the Fbi Miami shooting. I have read dozens of others in the past. The majority of failures will be bullets that dont reach vitals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Statistically, all the service calibers are close enough, based on say Eillfritz study. Again, I am all for marginally better & no one really thinks 9mm & 357sig are identical, but close enough that the shooters skill should decide choice. I am fine with any service caliber, just about any platform, carry them all, but reality, I will always be better with the 9mm, accuracy vs speed.
    The only caveat is the 9mm needs better ammo choice imo. The 357sig & 40 less so & 45 can almost get by with ball ammo, almost. Bigger bullets, bigger holes, as many as I can land in the down zero as fast as i can. More energy & a temp stretch cav, icing on the cake, but nothing beats landing good hits.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  4. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    I like the 9MM Para but it is not in my experience a "Stopper". I have as a Guide used the 9MM to finish off Big Game animals. The 9MM was a terrible choice. The .357 S&W with a 125 grs HP was much more effective.
     
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  5. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Yes amazing that someone would even have to post something as basic as this on a gun forum as if it needed to be said, but on this thread apparently it does.
     
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  6. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    All gun fights are different what is needed in one might not be what is needed in the another. That is why a round that has a balance of ballistic performance areas is the best choice for an unpredictable situation. Deep penetration might be perfect for stopping one fight but be totally useless in another. As tnoutdoors9 says "the 357 Sig brings everything to the table" deep penetration is one of the factors it brings to the fight. Accuracy and shot speed is something that the gun owner brings to the table. Carry the most powerful gun you can handle effectively.
     
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  7. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    I wouldn't classify 9mm ammo as being "fast", 357 Sig, 10mm, 357 Mag yes but not 9mm and every fight isn't a copy of the Miami shoot out.
     
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  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    One of the things that makes the venerable .357MAG so versatile, especially if dispatching medium-sized and larger animals, is the ability to use 158gr JSP, JHP or even the original LSWC, as well as bullet weights up to some of the more modern 170-180gr loads.

    Then again, since the only animals I had to dispatch on-duty were the occasional injured deer, at close range, I only used one or another brand of 158gr LSWCHP +P (to save using my Magnum duty ammo). They worked very well, even at the lower .38SPL +P velocities fired from a 4" barrel.
     
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  9. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    This regurgitated Internet nonsense is nauseating. I can choke it down because you were at least man enough to admit that the Internet is your only source for your firearms knowledge and this post wreaks of it.

    When did a government entity start worrying about cost? Where is the revolt from men and women in uniform because their agency chose 9mm over another caliber? Where is the pile of bodies of men and women in uniform because the 9mm failed them? How do you explain away the storied history of the .45ACP? How about the 9mm in use by our military for the past few decades? I know, I know, we never use that. Just more weight to carry, we got the M4 as the primary. Wait. That's weak too. 5.56 is for the sissy men and women in uniform.

    Why did you selectively ignore this gem from the other thread?:

    If the 357SIG has outstanding penetration, expansion AND more energy, how and why does the .40 have, "better choices of ammo"?
     
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  10. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    The 9mm did not fail in Miami. Tactics and skill at arms did. I would not classify it as fast either. That is why these sort of discussions never get anywhere.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  11. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Why I stuck with the 357. I also use more than just one guy's opinion on what I carry.

    I always thought that with these discussions that was what we call an "Assumption of fact", ie; that before you look at anything you have a good hit. That is why I laugh at people all the time looking for the magic bullet, well until you master you pistol it does not matter. Here is a target I shot a couple years ago from 15 yards.

    45 almost gets by with ball ammo? Please.......

    glock.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  12. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    That is why I like the 357, it works rather well over a large range of variables.
     
  13. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    I have not disputed that fact. The evidence is there. I am saying that for me the difference is in time so minute as to be irrelevant outside of competition where fraction of seconds determine the winner. Heck I won 3rd place in one TX PPC championships duty gun match shooting a 2 1/2 " 686. We all had the same score, winner had all X's, 2nd dropped 1 from the X I dropped 2 from the X.

    That being said, I generally conceal carry a full size Glock. As I said before my experience steered me away from small pistols. After a number of friends died in gunfights, and being a cop forced me to take a hard look at things. So, when I look at a new pistol to buy for carry one of the primary questions I ask myself is " is this the gun I want if I get into a gunfight", because what you have is what you have, you are not "fighting" your way back to anything.

    I just ordered a new Glock 45 MOS. One of my contracts that I work, I carry my own pistol and the Agency I contract for is switching to 9mm so it just makes sense.

    Oh yea the 9mm is WAY cheaper to shoot.... I just ordered a case of 9BPLE for about $165 shipped.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not down on the 9mm, I just never really warmed up to it. Especially starting out in the late 70's carrying a 1911 45 as an Army MP. As a young cop in the 1980's the 9mm sucked, but many were clamoring for it due to high capacity. Not me I carried a 357 wheel gun until 1996 on duty.

    I have carried a gun into harms way, literally for 40 years. I have been a competition shooter longer than that, my Grandfather was, my father was. To be honest I cannot tell the difference in recoil with my Glock between the 9mm barrel, 357 barrel and the 40 barrel, they just sound different. A lot of it with the 357 could just be that it is LOUD and it spooks people.
     
  14. Pilot172

    Pilot172

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    I remember a few years back when the 9mm was gaining popularity, the Glock Annual magazine would have numerous stories from various agencies regarding which caliber they were using. Almost everyone of them said cost was one of the reasons for switching to 9mm.
     
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  15. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Read some replies, there are some out there which is the argument, that energy dump exists & that IS the magic, which people with field exp know is just not true. Even if one is an armchair warrior, one can study gunfights & you quickly learn that a good bullet with good placement is the fight stopper.
    Yes if stuck with ball ammo, I would carry some flavor of 45 because ball ammo sucks. Why I say get by, because ball ammo is marginal in crushing tissue. THink large dia ice pick.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    It did fail nanuk. The fast 115gr did not penetrate far enough to damage serious vitals. The fight continued, so I would call that a fail. A better bullet design or more weight, bullet reaches Platt's heart, fight ver sooner. There have been many recorded fails of light & fast just like fails of slow & heavy. Accurate hits plus enough penetration to reach vitals; both lungs on an oblique shot or heart, spine from any angle.
    We are about the same age. In the 70-80s all I would carry was a 1911 or m66 snub loaded with 125gr jhp. The best 9m was the 95gr win pp or federal 95gr sp. just not enough mass for ebery shooting scenario or target size. Today we have a lot better choices.
     
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  17. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    LOL!
     
  18. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    And the last time I checked it was just as accurate as any other caliber and more versatile.
     
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  19. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

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    The continued reducing of large caliber handguns is related. This is directly related to the increasing number of Female officers sworn in. :cop:
     
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  20. fredj338

    fredj338

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    And just non shooting males as well. Regardless of gender or physical size, learning to manage recoil takes range time, There is no replacement for that. IF you have officers that refuse to practice but for their bi-annual or quarterly qual, most will not be able to handle more recoil than a 9mm, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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