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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Pilot172, Dec 11, 2019.
I don't use those gimmick rounds....just JHP's.
A dying deer or ambushed deer is not an amped up attacker. If one believes in one shot data or such things, then one shot stop data would seem to tell the story but?
Not that I am all in on such data, but notice the 357sig isn't all that much better than 9mm.
This is where gel porn gets people confused. A 15-20# block of gel, no bones or anything to disrupt the so called "shock wave", small mass, impressive. If you look at the very few 100#+ block tests, it isnt even apparent the block is being shot. So sure, temp cavs cause some minor wounding in a large mass, but unless the hit is near a semi solid organ, the tissue stretches.
Thanks. I haven't bought into the SB advertisement, but I think there are a couple offerings that test well.
As far as the energy/velocity thing. The terms are of course not interchangeable, that wasn't my point. The formula for determining energy requires mass and velocity. If mass is the same, for sake of argument, 124g, then the increase of velocity is all that extra ME consists of. So to say that you dont care about 100 ft/lbs means you dont care about the added velocity. Semantics debate really.
I think he switched to synthetic for a time, though I dont know when. I see you're being cute about the .357 data thing. I dont have anything quippy to say in retort.
It doesn't matter, but clearly there aren't that many .357 Sig options. So? As a whole they tend to work better than all the 9mm offerings, taken together. I'd trust a random brand X .357 Sig JHP to work if needed, but a random brand X 9mm JHP? No thanks.
The data shows that energy doesn’t come in to play until you get into rifle velocities.
And then POOF like magic it is there......
Wanna guess why there’s so little data on the sig round?
Same reason there is little about the 41 magnum?
Fred, you keep missing the whole point..... NOBODY is saying it is greatly better, just a little is good enough.
The dying deer still provides an apples to apples comparison. The lighter faster rounds worked better. This will correlate to other "amped up" animals.
True, a 100# block wouldn't look as impressive with the extra mass. But dang, that 20# gel porn block sure looks sexy!
Nanuk we all have read rails posts, he believes in energy dump & vel is everything. Roy Weatherby felt the same & while his cartridges are valid, been proven for what now, 60y, the bullet does the killing/stopping & only when it reaches virals or support structure. Energy alone isnt doing it. One only has to study a handful of gunfights where bad guys took mulriple hits from high me rounds & effectively stayed in the fight.
And if that same round struck an arm, the temp cav would exceed its limits & the arm would be toast. So sure, I dont ignore temp cavs but I know an expanding bullet that reaches vitals will provide a certain stop at some point. A bullet that does not means the fight may continue long enough for you to lose.
Sure. Just like everything else in life. Up to a certain point, nothing works. Then poof, at a certain point it does. I’m not sure why that’s hard to understand.
I’ll give you that one too. Neither is used very often in SD.
Because there’s better options.
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He may have, I’m not certain. But the tests I’ve seen he used to use wet-packs and now he uses the 10% ordinance gel.
I don’t buy random brand SD loads, I stick with the tried and true. For all calibers.
I would suggest everyone should.
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The whole ideal of gel tests is simply to have a common media and block size to test ammo performance in that as closely as possible resembles human tissue. When the gel is hit by a 357 Sig or 357 Mag it expands more than when hit by a 9mm. It's all relative the 357 Sig, 10 mm and 357 Mag will always make larger wound cavities no matter if the gel block weighs 20 lbs or 100 lbs. It's all about relative performance between calibers not about relative performance between ammo and gel block sizes.
Yes it hurts. This whole elastic flesh thing came up as an excuse to deny the effects of shock. Shock causes expanded flesh to tear when bullet velocity reaches somewhere between 2000 to 2200 fps. So the anti shock, anti velocity crowd are always claiming that because flesh stretches without tearing nothing else happens. They claim flesh magically soaks up all the energy just like nothing ever happened just like the extra energy wasn't even there. Yes being shot by a 9mm hurts, being shot by a .380 hurts being shot by a 357 Sig hurts even more, expanded non torn flesh and all.
The it doesn't count because flesh expands thing is just more fan boy BS that can be ignored like all their other crap.
What's with this weird fetish you have with constantly trying to claim I'm all big with FMJ ammo energy dump? I will make it simple for you HP bullets dump MUCH MORE ENERGY than FMJ bullets, BUT .......more energy makes both HP and FMJ rounds do what they do better. Stop with the f...g FMJ thing, stop claiming I am saying something I am not! Again.
It is said that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Right now you are pretty dangerous.
No sir, study them all. See what works across the board consistently. You are totally missing the boat here. You have no idea what I believe, you think it fits into your nice neat lil box, guess what, shooting people dos not fit into a nice neat lil box.
NOBODY is saying that energy alone is doing the job, what we are saying is MORE energy from basically the same round HELPS.
Nanuk, I never said I know what you believe, think or otherwise. You stated no one believes in energy dump & there are several on this forum that do. You obviously do NOT. I agree, more is better, but 50%, 30% better, not measureable. What only matters is bullet to vitals & tissue destruction. You are talking this personal, it is not.
Not a fetish just correcting your oft misplaced statement that ALL THAT MATTERS IS VELOCITY & ENREGY. Which is false when talking service caliber handguns. Still no energy dump rail, no lightening bolt affect, all your terms btw. I see now you have to up your vel numbers to reach actual tissue tearing. Good, you actually might be paying attention but we are still talking service caliber handguns. Focus.
Here, fixed it for you. Still you are wrong. The mass of the target certainly does matter. 1gal water jug vs 50gal, 25# meat target or 300#, yeah it sort of does matter.