Underwood 357sig Under Rated Velocity

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Pilot172, Dec 11, 2019.

  1. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    If handgun velocity didn't matter and all that the bullet does is crush tissue it comes in contact with then the .45 would be without question the best SD handgun, however it is not. In fact just the opposite is true as you pointed out no matter the caliber the thing that correlates closest to handgun effectiveness is velocity. A piece of lead is useless unless it is given velocity the more the better. Velocity is what separates the 10/22 from the AR 15, the 10mm from the .40 and so on.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    You guys believing vel wins the day, funny. It shows imo, how little field exp you have. Its the bullet, yes crushing tissue. More vel can help but not always, its the bullet. There is no energy dump or lightening bolt affect. Btw, Easter is coming, no Easter bunny either. Hopefully you guys shoot more than you type because bullet & placement is where its at. Energy is a distant 3rd place in a handgun against 2 legged targets.
     
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  3. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

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    ^^^^^^^..."because bullet & placement is where its at......"


    Add. And penetration...! Along with that bullet placement ! ;)





    CM
    :horse:
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  4. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Like I said if velocity wasn't important and crushing tissue was important then the .45 would be clearly superior to all others. But it is not despite having HP expansion of up to 1 inch.
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    If you want to obsess on velocity ...

    If crushing and tearing tissue and breaking bony structures is the goal, I'd rather have a .44 or .45 caliber 250-255gr LSWC moving at 1200-1300fps, than a .355 caliber 65gr or 125gr bullet (of any design) moving at 1500fps. ;)

    Caliber and mass still matter and still contribute to "work" being able to be done, than only thinking about simple velocity figures and calculated ME.

    Of course, one of the reasons I stopped carrying my .44MAG revolvers off-duty was a growing concern over potential threat target perforation at the higher end loads in strictly urban environments. Too much ability to deliver romp'em stomp'em ballistic effect can lend itself to other concerns when it comes to ordinary service/defensive calibers.

    Now, for backwoods and off-pavement threats, especially where thicker skinned threats may exist? The medium-bore, medium-power .357MAG (and its cousin the .357SIG) are still lesser calibers and loads than the bigger bore options. Kinda like arguing the supposed merits of which Corvair motor was the most powerful, in a world of powerful V8 motors. :p
     
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  6. fredj338

    fredj338

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    And you have some sort of scientific knowledge that it is not? Please share it so we can all be so informed. Even back in the day of the 357mag v 45acp controversy, most would put them pretty equal as man fight stoppers, even with the poor jhp of that day.
    We keep going over the obvious but some just ignore it. If energy & vel only wins, which would you choose for a charging 500# bear;
    60gr 223 @ 1200ftt# ME
    300gr 44mag @ 960ft# ME
    Energy dump says 223 wins right? Uh wait a minute, the 60gr bullet wont crush much tissue & said bear eats you before he dies of sepsis. You see there is a common sense way to look at theses things.:highfive:
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  7. amd65

    amd65

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    "Kinda like arguing the supposed merits of which Corvair motor was the most powerful, in a world of powerful V8 motors. :p..."
    Simple, the 140hp Corsa with four carbs and the short throw manual shift. It could get the jump on a wheel spinning V8 while leaving them behind in curves.
    Much better than the common 110hp.
     
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  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Leaving them 'behind' in curves only happened in the short term in Rallye type events where the Corvairs (or Sunbeam Tigers :) ) could take of advantage of their nimbleness to offset their lack of ponies and torque. :p Not in straight lines. :)

    Kind of like when the Volkswagon 914's (badged as a Porsche in the US market) could do pretty well in curved courses ... and they offered a motor upgrade, as well. :) 911 owners of the more 'powerful' models touted power, but the 914's touted nimbleness and maneuverability in short mountain courses, and "just enough" ponies and torque to do their thing with aplomb.

    Fun days, huh? :)
     
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  9. GunsNweights87

    GunsNweights87

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    The thing you are leaving out is the 125 grain 357 sig bonded projectile @1500 FPS out penetrates a 9mm 40 or 45 in the same construction. Also it is way better at all barriers, and In doing so it has more energy to the target you keep saying shot placement means everything yes but plain out the 357 sig with proper Shot placement is better than the others with the same shot placement how can you argue against that? 124 grain 9mm golddot penetrates 12-14 inches in fbi tests the 125 grain full power gold dot 357 sig goes 16+ guess which one crushes more tissue.....


    Sent from my iPhone using Glock Talk
     
  10. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I've often found it interesting that so many private citizens seemed to like to point out the necessity for "barrier perforation" (meaning perforating the barriers materials, and not just penetrating into them). However, the bulk of LE shootings (and off-duty OIS incidents) don't actually involve a lot of cops having to shoot through barrier materials at armed suspects at close range.

    Yes, I know how the FBI looks at it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  11. GunsNweights87

    GunsNweights87

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    You can’t pick where you are going to have a gun fight I’m i right? I’d rather know my round can do work when needed not just through clothes


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  12. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    There's arguably been some degree of over-emphasis on how "often" a shooting incident may involve the ability (and desirability) to defeat barrier materials. Even in LE OIS incidents, let alone private citizen incidents.

    Like I mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon for LE firearms instructors to return from shooting classes/demos where a wide range of LE duty weapons and ammunition (pistol, shotgun and rifle) are used on modern cars ... and ... the instructors are very surprised to have seen how well "ordinary" pistol ammo (let alone shotgun and rifle loads) defeated glass and body panel barriers.

    Kind of like how some cops training and using rifles may be initially surprised when they learn that some common handgun rounds can potentially offer more perforation of common residential building materials and walls than some 5.56 rifle rounds.
     
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  13. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I am not arguing that the 357sig is not a marginally better fight stopper. The entire issue is ME alone doesn't kill or stop a fight. If that were true, then there NEVER would be a failure to stop which we all know just isnt true. The sentiment among a few is ME is everything, the velocity is EVERYTHING, it is just not. A decent 230gr 45 jhp will penetrate to the same depth as a 125gr 357sig & with greater frontal area to crush tissue, yet some will claim some mythical "superiority" because of the temp cav. THAT is the argument. Shoot enough things or even see enough things shot & you know that the energy dump claim is at best a fantasy belief.
     
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  14. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Yet most of the gel porn guys will claim their fight will be at 3ft, over in 3sec so where does all this important barrier penetration come in? They also claim a fast reload is unimportant, so carry no spare ammo, or landing multiple hits unimportant because their lightening bolt affect will win the fight, yet ddismiss multiple attackers. No need for barrier penetration when it is over in one shot right? Being prepared for any fight is a whole lot more involved than picking a barrier blind bullet.
    We all know that fights can be anything, anywhere, but most calibers, 9mm & up, decent jhp, are up to the task. That includes barrier penetration. If I am banging away at some dude behind cover, he will be taking hits. Just about anything a 357sig will go thru a 9mm or 40 will.
     
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  15. Pilot172

    Pilot172

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    The field experience is what I have been quoting. Report after report from agencies of how there has been a noticable difference that velocity makes a difference. I have not seen a report stating the opposite. Show me a report where an agency went from 357sig or some other high velocity round to a 9mm and reported an increase in effectiveness. They switch for other reasons (more accurate, more capacity, cost, and following the herd).
     
  16. Pilot172

    Pilot172

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    I like the 60gr. I shot a 200 pound buck once with a 60gr 223. It was the only deer that ran 2 steps, did a complete end over end flip through the air and dropped dead. Insides were like they went through a blender. And besides, we aren't talking about 500 pound bears with heavy skin. The 300gr might penetrate better, but I think I'd still take the 223 with 30% more energy.
     
  17. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    You might better begin by looking at the growing number of agencies who have been making the switch from .357 to 9 and reporting no loss of observed "effectiveness" in OIS incidents.

    I won't be surprised if this becomes more common.

    Also, there are significant numbers of agencies who have consistently experienced what they consider to be very satisfactory results in many year's worth of OIS incidents, and they've been using both 9mm and .40 S&W, and have no immediate plans or desires to change.
     
  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Just out of curiosity, was the 60gr bullet one of the ones designed to mushroom and stay relatively intact, or a 60gr bullet which violently fragmented within the temporary and permanent wound cavity?
     
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  19. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    Exactly, as I have always said but often miss quoted I advocate for a round to have a BALANCE of ballistic performance. Not just .....simple velocity, crush cavities, PWC, penetration, energy dump, shock etc. IMHO the 357 Mag and 357 Sig offer the most power and best balance of these factors as relates to SD performance. A round with all these attributes provides a versatility of performance that will meet the needs of a great variety of SD situations.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  20. fredj338

    fredj338

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    You have no official data just what someone else observed, a dying deer is mot an amoed up attacker. Look, no one is saying or should be saying vel & energy do not matter. It just isnt the death ray some want it to be. No lightening bolt, no energy dump, all calibers have failed miserably in fights. The greatest factor is can the shooter deliver multiple hits to vital ares rapidly with a good bullet. That is all that really matters.
     
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