Underwood 357sig Under Rated Velocity

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Pilot172, Dec 11, 2019.

  1. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I actually only favor a bonded bullet in a light & fast handgun calibers, like 357sig, or most rifle rounds. In slower rounds & bonded bullet doesn't give me anything but less expansion & more penetration. I seriously doubt my fight will be thru a windshield. If it does I will fire more rounds.
    BTW, no one is saying ME doesn't matter, which is often quoted. No it just isn't the fight stopper. Temp cavs are just that temporary. They have only a minimal wounding ability & that is totally dependent no target size, ie 100# target v 400# target. No lightning bolt affect, as has often been thrown out. Yes ME matters, to get the expanding bullet to work, just not as much as some fantasize about. You want a fight to stop, man or beast, destroy vitals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
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  2. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Yeah, I spent much of my career working in and around veh's, and even including the OIS incidents from outside agencies where a cop had to shoot through a windshield or side window, it still numbers on the less than the fingers of one hand. Just wasn't something that kept me awake at night.

    Even when I do occasionally think of possibly having to defeat different veh glass, I'd still prefer something with heavier-for-caliber weight, even if it were moving at moderate duty ammo velocity (for caliber). Sure, velocity can help, especially when it comes to defeating intermediate barriers and still having the momentum to perforate softer mediums and wound. It's all shades of a balanced compromise, though.

    Even old-style cup & core JHP's can be observed to defeat veh doors and glass better than a lot of younger shooting & caliber enthusiasts might be willing to believe. It's always interesting to listen to younger LE folks returning from some training where they were able to test various duty weapons and ammo against a car, and hear them express surprise that a lot of commonly used pistol and shotgun loads did surprisingly well in perforating not only glass, but one or two doors.
     

  3. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    Some of the OIS I was around were done with 38 Snubbies. Bonded bullets would not have helped as the bullets did not penetrate side windows or the windshield, in several cases..... +P 125 grn 38 special..... No thanks... Oh..... That is about the same as a 147 grn 9mm in energy.
     
  4. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I know one guy who felt compelled to shoot several 147gr OSM's through his patrol veh's window, from the inside. They all went through, and some of them actually perforated the sheet metal of the van he'd stopped and felt necessary to shoot.

    The last manufacturer hosted gel test at my former agency's range included someone shooting some RA38B (PDX1) 130gr .38SPL +P into organic gel through the offset window plate barrier. It worked, and as I recall, it penetrated the gel block similarly to the 9mm 127gr +P+ load fired under the same conditions. Interesting.

    Similar to how the Speer .38SPL 135gr GDHP +P is shown to penetrate 11" of calibrated gel after defeating auto glass in their factory R&D testing, as low as 838fps, fired from a M640 1 7/8" snub (and it partially expanded to .556" in that testing).

    I've got a copy of some '02 Winchester factory testing (done using a 2" M60), somewhere in my older notes, which lists 3 of their loads (older STHP, 125gr JHP and their 158gr LSWCHP +P) tested in the factory ballistic scenarios, but I'd have to go look for it.

    For my own snubs that are rated for +P (or chambered in .357MAG), I tend to favor the Rem 125gr HPJ/BJHP +P (stiffer than copper jacketing), the W-W 130gr RA38B +P and the Speer 135gr GDHP +P, even though the last 2 are bonded bullet designs.

    I'd suspect the standard pressure 110gr JHP's I use in my older model M37-2DAO probably lack both the weight/mass and velocity to carry much "punch" through veh glass. That's the trade-off for using the old style JHP and FTX JHP loads loaded to standard pressure though, versus the 158gr +P loads (and with the W-W version being a bit harder than the Rem version, last I knew).

    Then, there's always the .380 fired from the LCP I occasionally pocket holster ... which has even less bullet mass and a relatively low velocity .... and falls under the heading of being marginally adequate (a nod to Mas), or minimally marginal. Whichever. Something along those lines. ;)

    It's always a compromise. Some days I can still belt on one of my 3"-4" .357MAG's, though. Mostly loaded with my remaining stock of W-W 145gr STHP, but sometimes the 125gr SJHP MAG load. I even have some remaining Rem 140gr SJHP MAG, too, but once it's gone, it's gone. More's the pity.
     
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  5. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Yeah you learn pretty quick that a modern car isn't much cover in a fight.
     
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  6. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Hell, back in the days of Magnum service revolvers we learned to only partially open our patrol veh doors, so the angled surfaces might not only potentially deflect incoming rounds, but would add some 'depth' (or distance, as it were) to what a bullet had to traverse to reach us.

    I liked adding the spotlight on either side to the overall scheme, too, and having the side window glass rolled down inside the doors to add more material inside the doors.
     
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  7. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Come to think of it, when I worked some of our more remote beat areas in the revolver days, where cover might be an hour away (if that), I took to carrying a couple extra speedloaders of a somewhat hotter & faster factory load sold by Norma in the 80's. It used a truncated cone fully jacketed 147gr bullet that was rated at 1450fps, which was the same velocity usually obtained by the lighter middleweight 125gr loads. I figured the potentially deeper "punch" of that 147gr TMC ball .357MAG load, properly placed, might give me some time to get my shotgun and some full power 1oz slugs into play.

    I only have a single speedloader of that old round left. I keep it as a reminder, added to some of the factory loads from yesteryear that I carried on-duty.

    I just wish I'd kept some of the older CCI 140gr .357MAG JHP's I vaguely recall they called it their Penta-Point, or something like that, as the small hollow point cavity had a pentagon shape to it. That was back in the days of the bright yellow plastic boxes with the easily upset inner trays and a thin layer of foam on the bottom of the boxes. It was a HOT loaded factory round. In my handloading days I used to buy those CCI 140gr JHP's and load them to similar fast/hot levels. Made for a great backwoods load, along with a half-jacketed 160gr LSWC load I also favored (for backwoods punch).
     
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  8. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    The one I remember most clearly was an Officer using a J frame 38 loaded with WW 125 grain +P 38's shooting a 1974 LTD that was trying to run him over. The bullets glanced off the windshield and the side windows.

    Maybe it is just the weird angles that happen in real life.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  9. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    I the revolver days I carried either Remington 158 grn SJHP's or WW 145 GRN STHP's all 357 magnums. In Ft Worth I carried my 6" 686 that I shot on the pistol team, in the BP had to carry a 4" 686. I really had not seen many people use 125's.
     
  10. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I remember talking to my fair share of satisfied LE users of the various 158gr JHP loads. Not everybody jumped on the 125gr bandwagon.

    I remember one guy, who worked for a Southwest agency and was responsible for their firearms training, telling me of a day when his boss came to ask him if they ought to switch to the 125gr loads a lot of people were talking about. The guy asked his boss if he was in any way displeased with the consistent satisfactory performance they'd experienced with their 158gr JHP's. His boss thought about it and answered, No. The guy then asked his boss, Then why change? That was the end of that.

    When I was in my youthful muzzle blast is cool phase, I unconsciously equated muzzle blast and sheer velocity numbers with proof of "power". Once reports of some people still failing to quickly fall to 110gr & 125gr .357MAG loads began to make the rounds ... as well as .41MAG loads, comes to that, from agencies using the caliber ... I looked more closely at what might make a reasonable choice for medium bore/.357 Magnum duty loads.

    I wanted to be able to run the loads hard, fast, controllably and accurately in my revolvers, in my hands. When we transitioned from 4" M66's and Pythons to 4" M686's, that made it a bit easier to shoot more Magnums. (Locally remanufactured 158gr LSWC +P was provided for quals, along with all-lead .44's & .45 Colt/ACP, too.) You wanted to shoot Mag's for quals and training? You bought them yourself.

    I wanted to be able to easily find whatever I carried on the local store shelves, too. We were only issued a box of duty ammo when hired in those days, and anything after that was at our expense, meaning either our annual uniform allowance of paychecks. :) When another new-hire and I went to Property to be issued our guns and gear, the Property guy put 2 boxes of .357MAG on the counter. Looking at them, I saw that one was 158gr JHP and the other 125gr JHP. First come, first serve in those days.

    As much as I still liked shooting the 125's, I found the middleweight 140-145gr loads to be very fast to run, low flash signature and very accurate. The STHP's were also pretty light on the fouling, too. ;)

    I still favor them today, comes to that. I still have some boxes of the older 125gr SJHP, a little of the Federal JHP ... and a couple boxes of the Rem 140gr SJHP. They all "work", but I've found more wheelguns that "like" the 145gr STHP than don't like it. It earned a respectable reputation in those older days, too.

    Wish they made it more frequently for scheduled production runs, and that it cost less than a buck a round. I liked buying it for $12-$15 per 50rd box. :) Should'a bought more to put back, dammit. Sigh.
     
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  11. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Was that by any chance the early 125gr STHP +P loads, instead of their copper jacketed 125's? Some of those older aluminum jacketed STHP's lacked a bit in ... punch. I remember a motor cop who had to shoot at a guy in a pickup. He said he put 8 rounds of the older 185gr STHP from his P220 in a cluster on the driver's door ... and none of them made it through the inside of the door panel to the suspect. Hell, they'd get mashed closed or significantly deformed just hitting a feedramp in my Commander, and they weren't exactly hot rounds for being middleweight .45's. I stayed away from the aluminum STHP's whenever possible back then. I did, however add some to my collection of old ammo when possible, and recently I saw that I still have an older 2-row 20rd box of the revised W-W .45ACP STHP in my old ammo collection. (The revised aluminum jacket with the notching cuts around the nose cavity lip.)

    I tended to favor the original 'hot' loading of the CCI 200gr "Flying Ashtray" in my Commander and Star PD in those days, as both .45's exhibited excellent feeding with it. That was before Rem had revised their 185gr JHP +P to improve the expansion characteristics of that older load (of which I bought case of it when I found some turned-in duty ammo at a local cop shop).

    One thing about the older days of ammo in LE was that with our much more limited choices in calibers and bullet designs, it gave us some incentive to exert some control over the things we could control, like working on becoming better shots. ;)
     
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  12. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    No, they were copper jacked with a little lead exposed.
     
  13. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    The 145 STHP's still run 1250 fps from my 2" model 640.
     
  14. GunsNweights87

    GunsNweights87

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    Only if the dot ever went out but that’s not likely with a Rmr bro


    Sent from my iPhone using Glock Talk
     
  15. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Well crap happens, anything elec can fail bro. Like a laser, better be able to shoot irons & have them as a backup.
     
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  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    It is my fav 357snub load. Yes I have 5-6 shot snubs.:drunk:
     
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  17. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter

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    I'm also curious about whether the velocity of the 115gr Nosler round UA offers in 357 Sig has changed. I don't think there has been a velocity change with their 65gr XD since it is a relatively new round and no recent youtube tests show any decrease in velocity.
     
  18. Nanuk

    Nanuk

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    I don't know mine are a couple years old.
     
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  19. Pilot172

    Pilot172

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    Here is more actual shooting proof on the velocity makes a difference side. This is from a police officer talking about car wounded deer he has dispatched over the years.

    "The deer shot with high velocity pistol bullets like the 125 grain 357 Magnum out of a 4" barrel, 9 MM 115 grain JHP +P+ and 135 grain 40 S&W JHP were very effective and immediately dispatched the deer. The slower heavier 45 ACP 185 grain and 180 grain 40 S&W did not seem as effective."

    There are so many comments out there like this from actual shootings. You never hear it the other way around, that the slower rounds where noticeably better over the higher velocity rounds.
     
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  20. AdamRodgers

    AdamRodgers "Facts matter, Feeling can lie" DocGKR

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    Well this is gonna be interesting, I "TRY" and te people what my experience is with hunting with self defense pistols and ammo and when the information is not what they like they turn into poo pitching monkey's and tell me it ant the same as shooting....... (add whatever)). Or I am lying, or I just "Need to go shoot some more Hogs" well :moonie:

    Now how many wantta put cash on if they like the post about hunting and it flowing "their thoughts and opinions" :headscratch:
     
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