Two situations: You are carrying, what would you do?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by wolfman97, Apr 8, 2010.

  1. wolfman97

    wolfman97

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    Two of my friends recently had potentially dangerous situations in public. Neither one was carrying at the time but it made me wonder what someone should do if they were.

    First situation. A friend is standing in line at the local convenience store, waiting to pay for his soda pop. As he stands there, the guy in front of him pulls a gun on the cashier and announces that it is a stickup. The BG apparently paid little attention to my friend, collects some money from the cashier and leaves.

    Second situation. Another friend is in a local furniture store. A guy comes running in the front door, bleeding from a big head wound, screaming for help. About two seconds later, another guy comes running in the door and starts going after him with a claw hammer.

    Luckily, both situations ended with nobody dead, and the guy with the hammer ran off when he heard people say they were calling the police.

    But that is no guarantee that the situation would work out that way every time. The BG at the convenience store could have turned around and demanded my friend's wallet. The guy with the hammer could have ignored the people saying they were calling the police.

    Neither one of these people considered concealed carry before these incidents. Now they are reconsidering. But the question remains, what do you really do in those situations? They have no desire to play cop, but they don't want to see anyone get shot or beat to death with a hammer in front of them, either. My motto is "when in doubt, clear out" -- get the hell away from the problem -- but that doesn't help someone getting hit with a hammer. Anybody getting hit with a hammer probably isn't going to want to wait for 911.

    So, knowing that any time you pull the weapon you are probably going to be having long annoying conversations with the cops, and any time you actually fire it, you are probably going to be sued by the BG you shot, what is the appropriate thing to do?
     
  2. Guser

    Guser

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    Depends on what state you live in and what the law says about the rights and responsibilities of CCW holders.
     

  3. HoldHard

    HoldHard

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    :agree:

    Will absolutely depend on the exact wording of the law in your state.

    HH
     
  4. wolfman97

    wolfman97

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    California, in this case. But assume you are in a state and situation that would give you the right to intervene to save others. This is a question more about what is moral, practical, and advisable, than what is legal.

    Assume that intervening is legal. Even if it is, there is a good chance that it will cause you to rearrange your life in a number of ways that you weren't planning. If it is legal to assume all the responsibility of pulling a weapon, do you really want to do it?
     
  5. Rich1287

    Rich1287

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    In Florida I believe the law states you can use deadly force to protect you or others from "death or serious injury" and to prevent a forcible degree felony.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  6. Adjuster

    Adjuster

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    Guy with gun in convenience store: He already has the drop on you. If you draw you will lose. Do as he says unless his actions show he is clearly going to shoot everybody then its all or nothing game on.

    Guy with hammer in furniture store: Order the guy to stop your calling the police. Throw a lamp at him to take his attention off the victim. If he comes at you or continues on the victim plug him with lead.
     
  7. majic man

    majic man

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    I agree with you on the second one and mostly on the first. If the BG is in front of you and not paying attention to you like he said, then you could easily draw and shoot him. But, guess who's on the otherside of the BG? The clerk.
     
  8. HoldHard

    HoldHard

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    Just a short reminder. IMHO answering questions like these on a public Internet forum that can be traced back to you is not the smartest thing to do. Lawyers and civil litigation will be able to dig up your replies and use them against you as premeditation evidence in court.

    Not a good thing to happen.... ever....

    I'd recommend posting this in the GATE - Self Defense area and get an answer from Mr. Ayoob.

    My short answer to both situations is to call 911 and prepare for the worst.

    HH
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  9. smullen

    smullen

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    agree with what the above posters have said...

    They actually cover this pretty heavy in the CCW course... Or atleast the instructor that led our class did...


    Find out whats legal in your state and not as far as use of deadly force....


    Remember, you should not take aim on something your not willing to kill...

    Lastly, something I never thought about till the class... Civil issues... If you/your friend were to have poped one off in either bad guy and even if it was justified (not saying it was or wasn't) It is still possible that you could be found liable in a civil court... Also, look at the money you would spend on a defense lawyer...


    The 1st guy, I for sure would have not done anything unless I felt he was going to shoot me... I'm really afraid that with the courts the way they are today, I'd be found guilty if I fired on him, for threatening a stranger... Its messed up, sometimes it seems like the courts and some goofy organizations do more to protect the criminal than the good folks that make this world go round...

    The second one, I'm mighta tackled the hammer guy... I dunno I'd have to have been there...
     
  10. voyager4520

    voyager4520

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    "and any time you actually fire it, you are probably going to be sued by the BG you shot"

    In my state this is not true if you were defending yourself or another inside a dwelling and your actions were ruled justified.

    First situation, I would back away with my hand on my gun while the bad guy isn't looking and maybe try to get outside, get away from the store and use my cell phone to call police, still with my hand on my gun ready to draw it. I would also be cautious of other people in and around the store because robbers can often have an "under-cover" accomplice. I have no reason to escalate the situation. If the situation escalates further to the point that I believe someone's about to die or receive serious bodily injury I will use deadly force against the bad guy.

    Though, if the guy were to point the gun at me or someone I'm with such as a family member or friend I will fear for our lives and use deadly force.

    Second situation. If I believe the man with the hammer is seeking to kill or do serious bodily injury to another person and I believe he is imminently about to do so, I use deadly force until he drops the hammer, falls to the ground, or runs away in a manner that he doesn't seem to be posing an immidiate threat to someone's life or a threat of serious bodily injury to anyone.

    Now as to exact details of when I would and wouldn't consider a threat, I've never been in a situation like that but basically if in that situation I think myself or someone else is about to die or receive serious bodily injury I will use the least amount of force necessary to stop that threat from being presented any longer, which would likely mean use of deadly force.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  11. fgutie35

    fgutie35

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    In Texas, :50cal:both, have :grill:, and :cheers: with :cop: later that afternoon.:cowboy:
     
  12. wolfman97

    wolfman97

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    From what I understood from my friend in the first situation, the BG wasn't paying attention to him and, if he had a gun he probably could have plugged the BG safely.

    I tend to agree with what you say on one level. I wouldn't want to see anyone continue to take a potentially deadly beating right in front of me. But once you throw the lamp then you are stepping into a situation where you may be forced to shoot him.

    I have no moral problem with shooting the BG (assuming it is perfectly legal to do so) but I know the aftermath could be a huge amount of civil liability for me, at a minimum. Is the morality of saving a stranger enough to warrant stepping into a new set of legal problems?

    When the BG's widow comes knocking on your door with a lawyer, or someone else in the store sues you for traumatizing them by firing a weapon, are you still going to feel the same about what was right at the time? Even if you win every time it goes to a judge or jury, it could still be one huge pain in the rear.
     
  13. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota

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    it depends on specifics that cannot be communicated without being there, but generally...

    1st situation, i probably would watch and be a good witness. i would try to keep moving to position myself where the bad guy would continue to not pay any attention to me (or not even see me) and where i was either already behind or could very quickly move to cover if he did decide to pay attention to me. if, however, something happened that made me reasonably believe he was actually going to shoot the clerk, i might draw and shoot the bad guy.

    2nd situation, i would probably move to a point where i had a clear line of fire and good back stop (and staying well out of arms reach), draw and yell for the guy with the hammer to stop. if he did not stop or came at me, i would probably shoot him. i could not live with myself if i just stood by and watched someone be beat to death with a hammer.

    in PA, all of this would be legally justified from a criminal standpoint (though dealing with the legal system is always a crap shoot). i might get hit with a lawsuit...which would majorly suck--but, for me, not as much as having to live the rest of my life knowing i stood by and let someone be beat to death with a hammer would suck.
     
  14. Thx-1138

    Thx-1138 NRA Member

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    1st Situation:

    Check for accomplices. If the BG in front of you isn't paying attention to anybody behind him, it might not be because he's stupid; it might be because somebody's got his back.
     
  15. dosei

    dosei

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    If it is not legal, it sure as heck is not advisable.:supergrin:
     
  16. 6F0 Nick

    6F0 Nick Just Wanna Fly

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    +1
    If he isn't paying attention to me and he isn't firing his weapon. I will let him leave with the 40 bucks out of the register. Not that I would have an issue with killing someone to defend myself, but I am not going to kill someone over $40.
     
  17. ubersoldat

    ubersoldat

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    In my state of AZ I know my rights so,

    1- Shoot.
    2- brandish with threat of shooting, put everyone on the floor, call 911.
    If claw hammer man turned on me, see #1
     
  18. BushmasterM4A3

    BushmasterM4A3 Mountaineer

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    I dont need a law or a rule to tell me I can save someones life. If the bad guy kills somebody, what will you tell the victims mother when she says "why didnt you stop him?"
     
  19. Warp

    Warp ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    WAY too many variables, still, to really say without actually being in the situation or maybe seeing a good video.

    1. Back away to cover, or at least the best position available hopefully with your back to a corner. Look for others. Most likely scenario seems to be guy gets money and leaves. If you strongly believe otherwise, or he starts shooting, etc, it may be time to take action.

    2. Hand on gun or draw gun, depending on the "attacker's" proximity to you, verbal commands to "attacker" if it seems he is going to cause injury right there in front of you, don't shoot (hopefully don't even draw) unless he is beating on somebody with the hammer or coming after you.
     
  20. Gibbles

    Gibbles

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    If I was there an someone was sticking up a store or something, I would not do a thing unless I felt people were about to die.

    Guy coming into a store after another that is badly wounded, I may pull my weapon and hope the attacker comes to his senses... but that all depends on the situation and how my gut feels about it.

    If I'm with my wife/family, my first duty is to them, not a stranger.
    If I feel they are in danger, I will get them out of danger, if that means taking care of the threat, then that's how it will work out.

    So far my gut/God has kept my self and my wife out of danger, I have gotten my way out of some scary situations, and big one I give God credit for was the trolly square shooting, wife and I were going to dinner, we parked about 30min before the shooting started and I had a dreading feeling, all the sudden I did NOT want to be there, while trying to figure out how to tell my wife she came out and said that she did not want to be here.

    We went somewhere else and saw all the emergency vehicles on the way home.