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10mm defender
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Didn't like the article.... and I see there was many an article here to follow. All the long winded boys are in this thread.:faint:
 

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To sum the article up, use what you have that you can comfortably shoot, fire as many times as it takes to put down the threat. Rifle, shottie, pistol. End of story.
This concept, though widely accepted, has a serious flaw. Unless you have some significant advantage your opponent will be shooting you as you shoot at him. This is known as mutual suicide where one party might be lucky enough to get to the emergency room in time to survive and then spend many painful months to achieve partial recovery. The people who keep repeating it say it as though it is simple and as though they are not getting shot as it happens.

In reality, unless you have an incompetent opponent, you have to be good enough to evade his bullets till you make you first hit and then that and each successive hit you make has to stop him shooting you for long enough for you to shoot him again. If and only if you can do that and if you have enough rounds in your magazine, you will eventually shoot him to the ground without being shot yourself.

This depends on the time you can stop him shooting at you and the speed with which you can make your hits. Any miss by you will give him twice as much time, or more if you make misses in succession, in which he will have a chance to hit you and turn the tables so that you are then unable to shoot him. The time you can stop him shooting at you depends partly on where you hit him and also on the power of your shot. A .32 will not and cannot buy you as much time as a 10mm with the same certainty from the same placement! Neither will a 9mm! I don't think anyone knows what time we are talking about here but some bullets are just more magical than others.

This is not something that can just be bought over the counter. It depends on skill and training. You have to be able to make the hits without misses and if you can't do that with a 10mm you need something less difficult until you can. If you can't carry a 10mm because of concealment difficulty, you have to allow for the lesser effect. Any gun is better than no gun in the kind of situations we are talking about.

On top of that, as others have pointed out, for civilians, situations where you need to shoot someone are very rare and situations where you need to shoot someone to the ground are extremely rare. Many potentially violent criminal actions will be stopped by the presence of any gun at all. Most criminals have innumerable victims to choose from and the risk of being shot is enough to send them elsewhere. On those extremely rare occasions where you need to shoot someone to the ground, you need all the help you can get from training, practice, magazine capacity and as powerful a cartridge and pistol as you can handle. In agreement with deogoodman, I am sure most people over reach their skill on the choice of power and by doing so they greatly hinder their development of skill.

English

PS Sorry uz2bUSMC! Another long winded one.
 

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Go Vols
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Didn't like the article.... and I see there was many an article here to follow. All the long winded boys are in this thread.:faint:
Of course you didn't like it. It was a common sense article. It didnt mention brains squirting out of ears and eyeballs popping out when shot in the stomach with the most powerful handgun round in the world.....the 10mm:rofl:
 

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I had the opportunity to attend some training for a week after this thread was started. One of the days involved an interesting lecture by a clinical psychologist who has spent over a couple of decades working with a a couple of police agencies, one of whom is LAPD. He invited 3 survivors of LE shootings to discuss their incidents with the lecture attendees. All 3 had been seriously wounded, and those wounds occurred before they had a chance to even get their weapons into action.

One of them involved a situation which had been recorded on an open line, involving 3 cops and 1 armed suspect during a robbery. As I remember, a total of 31 rounds were fired within just 10 seconds by the time the shooting was over. The cop who ended the incident had received several serious gunshot wounds, as had the suspect. He said when he was laying on the ground seriously injured he finally took the time to aim at the suspect's head and fired until the suspect stopped shooting. I think I remember that it was determined he had been able to 3 rapid and accurately placed head shots to end the fight (I'd have to check my notes). He was shooting a 9mm.

Another cop took us through his shooting incident in which he exchanged shots with an armed suspect from relatively close range (5 feet) to as far as 100 feet, if I remember right (I'd have to again check my notes). He said that it wasn't until he realized that he was on his last magazine, was seriously wounded and the suspect was still shooting at him, that he said he realized he had to stop shooting 'instinctively' and settle down to use his sights. He fired 2 rounds (shots 22 & 23, I seem to recall) which hit the suspect and stopped the fight long enough for help to arrive. The cop was shooting a .40 S&W.

Another cop took a hit through the lower part of the heart from a .357 Magnum revolver at close range (several feet), but managed to fire 4 rounds from an issued 9mm and stop the attacker (killing him), before succumbing to the life-threatening injury which required extensive surgery and recovery time. The cop credits being able to effectively use the shooting skills received in training and which she had practiced a lot.

I remember watching a tape during a lecture where a cop known as a fine marksman during training was only able to make 1 hit on an armed attacker during a shooting incident resulting from a vehicle stop. Stress can have adverse affects, especially when it's the product of hormonally induced (fear) and not only the result of physical exertion.

I've spoken to a number of other cops who have been involved in shooting situations, a number of whom I've worked with on the range.

I can only remember a couple of them mentioning any preference for caliber.

One of them was involved in an off-duty shooting with an unknown (fled) suspect who had apparently been armed with a 9mm pistol, while the off-duty gentleman had only been armed with a .25 ACP. The distance involved in the shooting was farther than that typically reported, described as across a city street. The off-duty cop wasn't wounded and it was unknown if the suspect who fled had been wounded, but the cop immediately got himself a larger off-duty weapon. He seemed to take his sessions at the range a bit more seriously, too.

While calibers, ammunition, guns and situations have varied among the cops and civilians I've known who have used handguns to defend themselves, a couple of things which seem to have remained consistent is that handgun wounds which have hit and penetrated into critical parts of the anatomy have seemingly been more effective than rounds which hit less critical anatomical structures, organs and tissues.

Skillset is important. Mindset is important. Proper, realistic training can help with both. Sufficiently frequent practice is important. Shooting is a perishable skill.

I'd much rather have a 9mm or .38 Spl than a .25 or a .32 ACP ... and I've trained hard to be able to use harder recoiling calibers and handguns, as well.

I've watched a number of folks who have chosen handguns which are harder for them to control, relative to their skills and abilities, than some other handguns. Something I've noticed is that a number of these folks seem to miss with their first round even under the reduced stress of qualification.

Maybe they're expecting the felt recoil which they know on some level is going to tax their abilities more than they'd wish.

Maybe their overall skill level isn't up to the task of making a reasonably quick and accurate primary shot under even the minimal stress of being observed and timed during a qualification, let alone with a heavier recoiling gun.

Maybe they just aren't well practiced enough to have control of their tendency to experience an anticipatory flinch for the first couple of shots.

Maybe a tendency to an anticipatory flinch isn't going to be a good thing when the first round or two fired result in the shooter experiencing more felt recoil than they are really comfortable handling even in normal conditions.

Whole lotta' maybe's ...

Maybe they might be better served by using a lesser recoiling caliber chosen from among the commonly used major defensive calibers, though, and getting some additional training & practice.

Fast misses serve no practical purpose and are an inherent danger down range.

I've always thought the 10mm would have made for a fine handgun caliber for military PDW usage with a 200gr truncated cone FMJ load. I notice no military service has claimed to have selected it, though. I suspect the handgun manufacturers who enjoy gov weapon contracts would climb over each other to make pistols for such a proposal. (Look at the HK MP design which was chambered in 10mm upon request.) Little doubt but that the ammo companies would follow suit even faster (and more easily).

I don't look for it to happen, though. ;)

Choose wisely. Train well. Practice frequently and properly. Cultivate and develop mindset.

Be careful placing an unrealistic amount of emphasis on either caliber or a specific bullet design.

I generally dislike getting involved in recommending specific calibers to people looking at buying off-duty or CCW weapons. I don't like making such decisions for other folks. I think they should carefully consider their own needs and research this subject for themselves. I'd hope that most folks wouldn't mistakenly overlook the importance of mindset, training, skillset and sufficiently frequent practice to maintain skills under stressful conditions, in favor of placing what might turn out to be an unfortunately misplaced amount of confidence in any particular caliber or weapon capacity.

Just my thoughts, as usual ...
 

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10mm defender
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Of course you didn't like it. It was a common sense article. It didnt mention brains squirting out of ears and eyeballs popping out when shot in the stomach with the most powerful handgun round in the world.....the 10mm:rofl:
I see you still haven't found that third grade teacher... reading on your own without supervion is bad.:shame:

Who graduated you from general glocking anyway?
 

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10mm defender
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PS Sorry uz2bUSMC! Another long winded one.
No prob brotha, I like reading what you have to say... even if it takes a couple of days.:supergrin:

ETA - The mantra you quoted above is nearly the same as "using your handgun to fight your way back to a long gun" mantra.
 

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Go Vols
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I see you still haven't found that third grade teacher... reading on your own without supervion is bad.:shame:

Who graduated you from general glocking anyway?
Pretty lame come back. Even with my 3rd grade education I could have come up with one better than that. I will give you some credit though. At least you didn't immediately start in with the name calling. Thats progress, I guess.
 

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10mm defender
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Fastbolt,

What were the officers shot with? Caliber/type/and location... excluding the female officer, I know she was hit with, the 110grn load.
 

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10mm defender
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Pretty lame come back. Even with my 3rd grade education I could have come up with one better than that. I will give you some credit though. At least you didn't immediately start in with the name calling. Thats progress, I guess.
You suck. That work?:dunno:
 

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10mm defender
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I've always thought the 10mm would have made for a fine handgun caliber for military PDW usage with a 200gr truncated cone FMJ load. I notice no military service has claimed to have selected it, though. I suspect the handgun manufacturers who enjoy gov weapon contracts would climb over each other to make pistols for such a proposal. (Look at the HK MP design which was chambered in 10mm upon request.) Little doubt but that the ammo companies would follow suit even faster (and more easily).
They probably won't make the change simply because they have massive ammo stores of .45 left. This is more important to the government than chosing the best ammo for their troops.
 

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Fastbolt,

What were the officers shot with? Caliber/type/and location... excluding the female officer, I know she was hit with, the 110grn load.
Referring to some of my notes ...

The LAPD officer was hit with one shot of 6 fired by the suspect. She said the distance was as close as 5 feet at the start (when she was shot). She fired 4 shots from her Beretta and hit the suspect with all 4 shots, putting him down at the back of her veh. Good thing, too, since she said she later learned that her Beretta had experienced a double feed when she had fired her 4th shot. I don't recall call her going into detail of the wounds suffered by the suspect, other than they were fatal, or else I just didn't bother to make the notes. Remember that this was essentially a mindset seminar and not a guns & gear seminar.

The LAPD cop did mention that prior to the incident that she had made it a point to practice with her issued Beretta weekly and had been very motivated to practice the skills she had been taught in their firearms training. She also described the gun shot injury as feeling like a red hot javelin had been shoved through her chest, and said she later learned she had suffered a tennis ball sized hole in her back (exit wound). She described the exchange of gunfire as having lasted what she estimated to be 3-5 seconds (with a total of 10 shots fired between them).

Listening to her describe the details of her injury and recovery was remarkable and sobering, especially considering that she was able to return fire, advancing upon the suspect and confirming he was down and no longer a threat, and then check the area for any other shooters before crossing to the sidewalk, where she finally collapsed onto her back (which apparently helped save her life by essentially sealing the wound in her back, as she explains it) ... after suffering a gunshot wound that punched a hole in the base of her heart, as well as inflicting a secondary vessel injury later discovered which required a second surgery.

The robbery incident involved 3 cops armed w/Sig 9mm's. The suspect had a Glock 9mm (G17?). The cop discussing the incident was 1 of 2 cops who were hit and went down during the brief and furious exchange of gunfire. He said he suffered 6 hits before he finally was able to get his front sight on the suspect's head and fire the 3 head shots which ended the fight. He said he remembered the suspect sustained either 3 or 4 torso/extremity hits that were later considered to be 'survivable hits' before suffering the 3 head shots.

Some of the comments I noted made about the robbery incident include "smoke filled room" (small store front business); "No peripheral vision"; "Didn't hear gunshots"; & one of the duty Sig 9mm's experienced a dbl feed (didn't note which officer's gun).

The suspicious veh incident involved a cop (CHP) armed with a .40 S&W and the suspect had a 9mm of some sort. Both the cop and suspect survived the incident. I didn't note the number of hits sustained by the cop (2?), but I remember him saying he was losing control of his upper body/shoulder at one point. The cop appeared hale and hearty when I spoke with him during the seminar, but he said the suspect was somewhat disabled from the gunshot injuries (and is serving his prison term). The cop recovered and returned to work for several years (and is shortly going to retire, as I recall).

I should probably again point out that this seminar was not oriented on guns & gear, but on the mindset of cops and understanding how the body reacts under stress, and especially fear & pain. The last time I attended this particular lecture (called, "I'M SHOT" by the lecturer) another working LE speaker was present who had suffered a couple of shoulder/neck 9mm wounds which put him down and caused him a long and painful recovery and return to duty.

Some of the instances are mentioned in the doctor's book, "Force Under Pressure, How Cops Live and Why They Die", Dr Lawrence N. Blum, (ISBN: 1-930051-12-3), which contains many more examples, although he generally doesn't list names or become technical when it comes to guns, calibers, etc. He does, however, discuss techniques and tools useful to condition an officer's decision-making ability and concentration during conditions of crisis & emergency, developing the internal controls necessary to develop and maintain the will to survive. It's a worthwhile read ... and an excellent lecture to attend if you're in the Safety field and can find one of his lectures. I've attended twice and have learned (or at least heard and recognized) new things each time. I'll likely go again sometime. It's only an 8-hr class, but it's packed with info.

If guns and ammunition were themselves going to get involved in shooting situations without being in the hands of humans, I'd give more attention to the purely mechanical designs and inherent ballistic properties of the equipment and ammunition involved ... but they've got to be used by people, and that introduces the whole knowledge, training, tactics, physical conditioning and mental mindset influences of the equipment-user to be considered, as well.

Guess which set of factors I've been spending increasingly more time studying as my experience as a firearms instructor and trainer has evolved? ;)

Of course, I'm not in the business of selling gear, guns or ammunition, either.
 

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They probably won't make the change simply because they have massive ammo stores of .45 left. This is more important to the government than chosing the best ammo for their troops.
That, and likely for at least a couple of other reasons. Sidearms/PDW's aren't really that high on the list when it comes to choosing 'effective' ammunition, anyway. Look how long the 130gr .38 ball loads were used.

I did find it interesting that the Air Force was apparently expressing some interest in the .40 S&W cartridge for a bit (and remember their involvement in our accepting the 9mm NATO service cartridge). Nothing serious, though, and the money isn't going to be there for changing service pistol calibers, anyway. I'd think any attention and funding would be more likely to be invested in considering candidates for a new battle rifle and/or cartridge for the next 50 years. ;)
 

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10mm defender
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That, and likely for at least a couple of other reasons. Sidearms/PDW's aren't really that high on the list when it comes to choosing 'effective' ammunition, anyway. Look how long the 130gr .38 ball loads were used.

I did find it interesting that the Air Force was apparently expressing some interest in the .40 S&W cartridge for a bit (and remember their involvement in our accepting the 9mm NATO service cartridge). Nothing serious, though, and the money isn't going to be there for changing service pistol calibers, anyway. I'd think any attention and funding would be more likely to be invested in considering candidates for a new battle rifle and/or cartridge for the next 50 years. ;)


Thanx for all the info, Fastbolt.

And it looks like the battle rifle thing is correct, the Marine Corps is looking at an upgrade. Money, of course, is the big issue. Takes alot of it to completely field a force with a new primary weapon.
 

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Hi Guys,:)

New guy here!

I've been facinated by this particular thread. And, I've learned quite a bit from it. I've also had to disagree with some of it. However, what I like or dislike is actually irrelevent and I won't spend any time putting it forth.

You see, all of are most likely in the same predicament that I find myself in. And, to somewhat complicate matters, if you were to pole all of us who've been following this thread, you'd most likely find that we all differ to some degree on what we find as "correct", "eh, so-so", and total BS. But, that's the situation with most subjects like this one, where all of the empirical data is really open to much interpretation due to the enormous number of scenarios to which it can be applied. Scenarios which will shift, twist and distort the emperical data as to it's effective application to one scenario or another.

My observations are not intended to offend anyone, pick on anyone, or detract from the spirited point and counterpoint that has been occurring here. I simply wished to bring out the obvious point that no matter how careful you present your arguments or how logical you try to be with them, with subjects like this one, there is no definitive answer. So, I do sincerely hope that no one gets their shorts in knot, or their noses tweeked by my comments.

Thanks guys, it's been real interesting, most entertaining, and quite educational.

SgtSam:cool:
 

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LAPD Officer was not wearing her vest?
On her way home in regular clothing. At one point her personal vehicle was selected and targeted for a criminal act by gang members. The incident occurred in front of her residence after she stopped.
 

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Hi Guys,:)

New guy here!

I've been facinated by this particular thread. And, I've learned quite a bit from it. I've also had to disagree with some of it. However, what I like or dislike is actually irrelevent and I won't spend any time putting it forth.

You see, all of are most likely in the same predicament that I find myself in. And, to somewhat complicate matters, if you were to pole all of us who've been following this thread, you'd most likely find that we all differ to some degree on what we find as "correct", "eh, so-so", and total BS. But, that's the situation with most subjects like this one, where all of the empirical data is really open to much interpretation due to the enormous number of scenarios to which it can be applied. Scenarios which will shift, twist and distort the emperical data as to it's effective application to one scenario or another.

My observations are not intended to offend anyone, pick on anyone, or detract from the spirited point and counterpoint that has been occurring here. I simply wished to bring out the obvious point that no matter how careful you present your arguments or how logical you try to be with them, with subjects like this one, there is no definitive answer. So, I do sincerely hope that no one gets their shorts in knot, or their noses tweeked by my comments.

Thanks guys, it's been real interesting, most entertaining, and quite educational.

SgtSam:cool:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14877321&postcount=50

The last couple of paragraphs in that article, pretty much sum it up.

IGF
 
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