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Thoughts on Glock Race guns?

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by Suburban, Aug 1, 2006.

  1. Suburban

    Suburban

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    I've gone to a couple pin and plate matches, and it's a lot of fun.

    I looked into double-stack 1911 race guns, but they're pricey, return on investment is simliar to a racecar (low resale), and are probably more than I need for local matches. Reliablity is also questionable.

    I really like my Glock 21, but I'm lucky to get to the 2nd round against optic-topped single actions.

    Using the same gun with a .22 conversion would probably be a major bonus. Marvel seems to be the only company to make a kit for double stack 1911s, but they don't lock back on the last shot, so I might as well use my Ruger Mark II.

    Matches are all at 15 yards with 6" square plates or bowling pins. Do you think I could hang in with a race prepped G21, given some talent and practice? Are Glock race guns a total waste of time and money?

    I've wanted a G20 anyway, could use the "spare" frame to put the race stuff on/in, keeping the other for carry/IDPA.
     
  2. outsider0506

    outsider0506

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    I'm just theorizing based on my own experience, but I'm a 9mm shooter with some experience with .45s... I tried my friend's very tuned up Kimber quite a few times and believe the difference between a Glock and a race gun falls into 3 areas:

    1. Trigger
    2. Recoil Management
    3. Accuracy

    As for the trigger, no matter what you do to a Glock trigger, it will never be exactly like a custom 1911 race gun. You can put lighter springs, 3.5lb connector, and trigger stop (which I've done all of except for the trigger stop), and it improves the trigger a lot, but it is still not as light and crisp as a good 1911. Is it usable? Sure, but it depends on your own desire.

    Recoil is another matter entirely. You can try putting a different recoil assembly in (I wonder if they have 2 stage springs for glocks?), but since the frame is polymer and very light, it will never feel the same as a 1911 race gun.

    Accuracy... With that Kimber, I just pick up the gun and hit fairly small steel targets at 150-200 ft away, no practice whatsoever. With my own Glocks it is a challenge.

    So what's the up side? Glocks are low maintenance, dependable and CHEAP! My friend has spend at least $500 in replacement parts, and gunsmithing time to get his pistol to where it is. Also, he HAS to clean it after every trip to the range. Me? I skip 2 or 3 sessions w/o a problem. I've done all the trigger with myself with aid of the internet.

    So back to your question, I'd do as much as I could with the trigger and make a run in competition. 15 yrds is pretty short range... precision accuracy isn't a big issue. I'd concentrate on recoil management and quick follow-up shots in your practice and I'm sure you'll be able to give those fancy race-guns a run for the money!

    BTW, another friend has an optic sight on top of his G35. Very sweet and pretty precise too. He does a lot of tournaments locally and does well against 1911s and Sigs. However, he is a fantastic shooter and can shoot rings around me.
     

  3. jlh2600

    jlh2600 Game Master

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    Unless you are talking about bullseye competition, where seemingly miniscule advantages in accuracy become significant, a $2-3k 1911 will not necessarily own.

    Anything less than 25 yards, where time is an equal factor, and the goal is to shoot at least above a certain threshold of accuracy, your G21 is NOT at a disadvantage. In this type of competition, your gun only has to be accurate enough to consistently and quickly hit the targets (there are no extra points for hitting a plate dead center vs an inch from the center).

    Your competition is shooting 6" plates at 15 yards? I'll take your 21. STOCK. Or a 34 or 35 if you want to be on the same playing field as the 1911's in terms of sight radius. Put up some 6" targets at 15 next time and see, pepsi challenge style.



    EDIT- sorry I missed this, this is true.
     
  4. ede

    ede Bama's Friend

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    i have several that i call race guns. carver mount with a Cmore ,KKM barrels, comps and all the small parts. i did the trigger work. it's still a glock trigger and nothing like a 1911s trigger. for speed and being able to hit a plate at 15 yards i don't think you'll have a problem with a glock. not sure how it'd work out on a 1911 but with a glock you can pretty much strip off the race gun parts and resale the base gun then sell the race parts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2009
  5. TimWarner

    TimWarner Resident Goth

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    the glock 17 race gun I built ran me about $1200 for parts, I did all the work myself.

    Handles very well running 9mm major for USPSA, I definitely keep up with the STI guys.

    Triggers can be shorted down to about 1/3rd or so of normal pull and 2-3 pounds fairly easily.

    I'd assume you could do the same with a G21, though I think you'd be limited to a Jpoint or a carver mount/c-more.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. USPSA Guy

    USPSA Guy

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    You are not competing against the other guns. You are competing against the other shooters. If you suck, a $10,000 handgun is not going to turn you into a winner.

    A Glock "needs" some basic work to be competition-ready, but not much. Drop a RS trigger into it, a tungsten guide rod, a magwell if you have to reload on the clock, TruGrip, decent sights and you're ready to go. Playing around with springs can also help the "feel" of the recoil. Load to the minimum power factor that will be legal, and have at it.

    While I replaced the barrel in my G35 with a KKM, it really wasn't necessary. If you are having accuracy problems, then first determine if the gun is actually at fault. Could be the ammo, but more likely it's you if the gun proves to be OK.

    Once you have good trigger control with the Glock, then you should be able to run with just about anyone else in your division, regardless of what they're shooting.

    I normally shoot a heavily modified Para in USPSA Limited, but I can switch to my G35 and still finish with pretty much the same results as always.

    For such short range work on steel/pins that you're talking about, the light weight of the Glock could be an advantage in terms of faster transitions. Most of my fastest plate rack runs have been with my G35 firing minor PF ammo.

    I don't know squat about Open Glocks, but I imagine it would still come down to who is the better prepared/skilled shooter until you find yourself shooting against pros.
     
  7. Suburban

    Suburban

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    Yes, certainly my inexperience with speed shooting has something to do with it.

    A red dot helped me a lot on the Ruger. Rimfires are not good on pins, and the Mark II is too slow to reload. One rimfire shooter spun 4 of 5 pins, but they didn't fall off the rail. All but one person at the pistol range had a good laugh. :supergrin:

    You've given me some things to think about...
     
  8. shootingbuff

    shootingbuff Millennium Member

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    Good sighte, good trigger, and practice.

    sb
     
  9. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson

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    I'd get a lighter caliber or, if you handload, go to the least load that would cycle the gun. Recoil matters.
     
  10. kyjack45

    kyjack45

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    If you like the grip angle and feel, shoot all shooting sports and Divisions (except revolver) with Glocks. You can't shoot both fast and accurate unless you are very experienced with a gun. I personally don't have time to practice with 3 different types of handguns so I shoot Glock autos and S&W revolvers at this time.
     
  11. cmzneb

    cmzneb

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    My thought on race guns (Glock and non-Glock)......

    I love it when I beat a race gun with a stock Glock. I'm not a believer in putting $2k into a gun to be competitive.

    The victory tastes so much better when my $500 gun beats the $2000 race gun. The skill lies with the shooter himself and not the gun.
     
  12. Jakk

    Jakk Millennium Member

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    Light caliber for plates would be good.

    Pins are another story. If you are just shooting them off of a sawhorse, than run whatever recoils the least. But if you are shooting them off a table, you need a little more power. A .45 with heavy bullets is great for taking pins clean off the table. A 10mm works very well also. 9mm & .40 will work, but you have a lot less leeway. If you don't hit the pins dead center, it is likely to tip over and require another shot to knock it off the table.

    For pins, concentrate on making one shot per pin. Slow down and get a solid hit every time. You will find yourself getting faster overall times.
     
  13. LiberalHater

    LiberalHater V.R.W.C.

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    I run KKM barrels in both my G34 open gun and my G35 limited gun. Don't forget, in addition to a small boost in accuracy, you get fully supported chambers in case you begin to load on the "warm" side for running comps or keeping slide speed "snappy".

    Lib
     
  14. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    I put this together with a KKM compensated barrel, a couple of extended levers from the local gun shop parts bin ($2-3 each) and a J-Point sight.

    I took it out yesterday to sight it in (Winchester white box ammo) and from a sandbag rest it was shooting 25 yard groups that were unbelieveable - on the last target, shots were mostly touching between adjustments and even with fine tuning the sight in-between all the shots on the target would have fit into the bottom of a coffee cup. I have put down people who add KKM barrels to get more accuracy in the past (and it truly isn't a serious factor in action shooting) but the accuracy of this things is fantastic. The only handgun I could top that with is my father's 8" S&W 29.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Mtrclass

    Mtrclass

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    If you are shooting pins off of a standard table you need to run a pretty hot load. What you don't want to happen is have the pin fall over and stay on the table.

    The Glock based Pin Guns I build are based on a Glock 20 using a KKM Hybrid barrel. This allows for a very stout load and still have a lot of control. You can use either a dot or iron sights, which ever you prefer........
     
  16. Suburban

    Suburban

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    The Glock seemed to be the best option for me.

    Got to poking around the Brian Enos forums. A lot of what I read pointed to Glocks maybe being better for people who shoot for fun (vs. people who NEED to win), and for games where shooting minor loads isn't a handicap.

    The pins just have to fall over, and 9mm Luger is fine for that. I bought a G17, a Vanek trigger kit, Carver mount and ProPoint, and the extended controls. Just need to work on learning the trigger and try to get rid of some of the pre-travel.
     
  17. Suburban

    Suburban

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    Got back from a steel match a couple hours ago. Had I realized that the trigger safety was keeping the trigger from resetting, I would have done really well and might have won some money. The Glock and I shot real well against the steel single actions. No one made fun of my Tupperware pistol.

    Match director mixed up the course this time. Much to my surprise, I had NO trouble with the ram silhouette at 40 yards. My 25 yard groups off the bench usually look like shotgun patterns, I must shoot better offhand.

    Need to try some lighter recoil springs and maybe lengthen the ejector. Maybe ditch the mount and tube sight for a JPoint. Even with the Carver Hunter mount, I've still got brass boucing back into the ejection port.
     
  18. glock_40_calibe

    glock_40_calibe Glocks Rock

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    I just set up an open division G35 for USPSA. Shot it in its first match yesterday. I love the JPoint. Of course, the KKM comp doesn't seem to hurt, either. Over 400 rounds though it so far, no problems whatsoever.
     
  19. Ruffshot

    Ruffshot

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    the KKM comp doesn't seem to hurt, either. Over 400 rounds though it so far, no problems whatsoever.



    doesn't a comp on a G35 make it too long for USPSA? I have been considering this for my G35 but thought it would be too long. Will it still fit "in the box"? Just curious.
     
  20. glock_40_calibe

    glock_40_calibe Glocks Rock

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    For open division, there is no "box" the gun must fit in. No restrictions on size at all. Same for Limited, although using a comp in limited will get you a mandatory invitation to open division real quick.