This students instructor will be meeting with the FAA.

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by G19Tony, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. bipe215

    bipe215

    Messages:
    1,367
    Likes Received:
    2,179
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Location:
    East Tennessee
    Exactly
     
    Paul53 likes this.
  2. aircarver

    aircarver Descent Terminated Silver Member

    Messages:
    33,085
    Likes Received:
    14,042
    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Location:
    Ft. Worth, Republic of Texas
    I always felt the 152 was quite comfortable ...

    I flew it solo, sitting in the middle and using opposite corner rudder pedals ...

    Oh ... You meant with two people in it ? ... :supergrin:

    :outtahere:
     
    larry_minn and cowboy1964 like this.

  3. 3glkdog

    3glkdog

    Messages:
    2,146
    Likes Received:
    806
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2006
    Location:
    LV, NV
    Or it was his only student, and the money was good. Keep him around for as long as possible.
     
    aircarver likes this.
  4. HJB

    HJB Banned

    Messages:
    1,500
    Likes Received:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Yea, I was wondering about that as well. I guess I missed that this was his first solo flight at 60 hours. If it takes a guy 60 hours to get where he can solo, I would never sign him off at all if it were me.
     
  5. cjm1023

    cjm1023

    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    1,715
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    The report said he had around 60 hours TT, with over 7 PIC. Sounds to me like he was one solo flight (XC qualifier) before getting ready for the Private Pilot Checkride, assuming he met all of the other time requirements. If that was the case, 60 hours is not unreasonable for a part time student
     
  6. HJB

    HJB Banned

    Messages:
    1,500
    Likes Received:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    I don't know the requirements are any more, but when I took flying lessons and got my license you could qualify to take your check ride and get your license with 35 hours of time if you were in an FAA "approved" program. And I did that over a period of over a year to get my license. My first solo was at 6:45 of flight time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    OttoLoader likes this.
  7. cjm1023

    cjm1023

    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    1,715
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    You still can for a 141 program. Bit more for part 61. All I’m trying to say is two things. First, this was not a first solo if the NTSB report is correct. Second, not many take the test with bare minimums. 60 hours TT or so is fairly typical to be ready the check ride.

    At the end of the day, he still screwed up. Better then before he was able to carry passengers...
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  8. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

    Messages:
    11,273
    Likes Received:
    7,069
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    In the hallway - it's on cuz!
    For Part 61 training, it takes 40 hours minimum, with at least 10 hours of it solo, to take the checkride. The national average is 65. I expect that it’s a combination of a few things, the biggest of which is students who only fly once a week or less. The bigger the gaps between lessons, the more hours it takes.

    Part 141 can be done in less because a strict cookie-cutter curriculum is followed, but I’m not sure how it accounts for individual differences.

    For the non-aviators, Part 61 and 141 refer to the parts of the Federal Aviation Regulations that govern flight training. 61 is your typical local flight school. The regulations have specific requirements for training hours, topics and flight experience, such as a certain number of night flight hours, landings at an airport with a control tower, flights of more than 50 and more than 100 miles, and so forth. How they reach those milestones is left to the instructor. Many tens of thousands of pilots have been through Part 61 training and are safe, successful pilots. All of the airline pilots who I know went through Part 61.

    Part 141 follows a set curriculum. Each Part 141 flight school designs its own customized course, which has to be approved by the FAA and followed exactly. They follow - more or less - an academy environment, with their students and instructors wearing airline-style uniforms (but almost universally too big, not pressed and looking really dorky, especially shoulder boards with stripes for flying a Cessna 172).

    Part 141 can be done in less time, but is almost always more expensive. 141 schools typically charge up front for a package, such as private, instrument, commercial, multiengine and instructor. All those are completed in a year, for about 65 grand, and the new pilot goes to work at the school as an instructor to build hours to get hired for a better flying job. Many of their students and instructors are foreign nationals who come here for training.

    Each has pros and cons, and neither is necessarily better than the other. One advantage of Part 61 is that you’re more likely to get an instructor who’s been around the block a bunch of times, might be a current or retired airline pilot, and knows how to teach.

    Part 141 you’re probably going to be trained by a 20 year old who’s flown only two or three different planes to the same few airports and only knows what his flight school has told him. He may well be a solid instructor, but doesn’t have much experience at flying or life.

    Choose wisely, and pick the one that’s the best fit for yourself.
     
    aircarver and Caver 60 like this.
  9. aircarver

    aircarver Descent Terminated Silver Member

    Messages:
    33,085
    Likes Received:
    14,042
    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Location:
    Ft. Worth, Republic of Texas
    Well, I soloed (at New Haven) after about 40 hours ...
    I was flying out of the (defunct now) training operation Flight Safety had at Republic Airport (FRG .. Farmingdale, LI NY)
    Their attitude was I was flying in the NYC area airspace, and I was going to be thoroughly familiar with how you did that before they turned me loose. So I traipsed to airports all over that airspace, until they were happy with that, before they let me do the 'trained monkey trick' :supergrin: [solo] They said that that wouldn't take long, (& it didn't). ... :supergrin:
     
    Caver 60 likes this.
  10. Caver 60

    Caver 60

    Messages:
    9,905
    Likes Received:
    11,685
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Location:
    Midwest
    In the military in the 60's we generally soloed the T-37 in about 15 hours or so of flight time. But we flew every weekday, and also spent half of each day undergoing intensive ground training. Then we got about 120 hours of total T-37 time, before moving to T-38's.

    Same drill. Soloed the T-38 at about 15 hours or so, then a total of about 120 total hours of flying the T-38, along with 1/2 day of intensive ground school. Then we graduated and 'got our wings'. In theory we could fly any fixed wing aircraft in the inventory, and of course were fully instrument rated. In practice there were fighter pilots and large multi engine type guys.

    After getting our wings, we went to advanced training for our specific aircraft type. Then to an operational unit, and usually Vietnam PDQ, in those days.
     
    Paul53, aircarver and G19Tony like this.
  11. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

    Messages:
    11,273
    Likes Received:
    7,069
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    In the hallway - it's on cuz!
    Plus, military student pilots have already been heavily vetted before they ever show up to training. The only qualifications for civilian students is that they can pay.
     
    Paul53 and Caver 60 like this.
  12. bunk22

    bunk22

    Messages:
    5,849
    Likes Received:
    3,969
    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    If you read the NTSB report, this was not his first solo. He had almost 10 hours of cross country solo. He had already soloed. At least if I’m reading this correctly but correct me if wrong...

    143E8467-A827-4F53-B949-1CDA85E016BB.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  13. bunk22

    bunk22

    Messages:
    5,849
    Likes Received:
    3,969
    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Not always true. I had no prior training before starting Navy flight school. Introductory Flight Screening (IFS) generally comes and goes depending on money and need. During my 20 years, I was a primary flight instructor, intermediate and advanced Navy jet instructor and an FRS instructor at VAW-120. With respect to IFS, I flew with students who had it and didn’t, there was no difference in the students. The Navy’s goal is, as you alluded to, was to vett students to see if they had an ability to fly or even liked flying. It cost to much money to find out a Navy flight student doesn’t like flying or have he “it” factor in primary flight training.

    We had students who had thousands of hours but most had zero or just IFS. Even thousands of hours didn’t guarantee success as civilian flying doesn’t include two, three, four plane formation, night formation, cruise formation, TAC forms, BFM, air to ground and of course, aircraft carrier landings. As a jet IP, the factor that separated the pilots was formation flying. Flying slow props doesn’t compare to what you did in jets. Most got it but it was the great equalizer in military aviation. As a fighter guy, you will spend 75% of your time in formation.
     
    Caver 60 and Deanster like this.
  14. bunk22

    bunk22

    Messages:
    5,849
    Likes Received:
    3,969
    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    In the Navy, we solo after about 25 hours. But we make sure they are ready, it isn’t just pattern work. They have to do go through landings, stalls, spins, HAPL, LAPL, course rules and demonstrate proficiency based on our grading system. You fight or fly like you train, just like your AF pukes did ;)
     
    Caver 60 and Deanster like this.
  15. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

    Messages:
    11,273
    Likes Received:
    7,069
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    In the hallway - it's on cuz!
    They at least made it through an academy, or a university and officers training. I'd think that at least demonstrates the ability to learn and apply.


    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
  16. Caver 60

    Caver 60

    Messages:
    9,905
    Likes Received:
    11,685
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Location:
    Midwest
    I didn't know an aileron from a rudder when I entered pilot training. The only vetting was to get a security clearance. We did do the routine stuff like stalls and spins before solo.

    And as I said in another thread, not long after I was in pilot training, the AF changed to what we called the 'crop-duster' program where you had to solo a propeller plane (I think it was a 172?) before you went to T-37's.

    Edit, Oh yeah and of course we had made it through college and Officer Training School, before pilot training.
     
    Paul53 likes this.
  17. larry_minn

    larry_minn Silver Member Millennium Member

    Messages:
    22,697
    Likes Received:
    16,027
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 1999
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Ok I misread it. I saw 6.45 minutes. Not 6:45 minutes. (Still wasn’t super clear). Opps Sorry. Almost 7 hrs makes more sense.
    Serious?
    To me a Solo is where you are the only person in the plane. You take off, fly for a while, return to airport, get permission, fly the landing... alone. No instructor ready to take over, give advice,,.
    So with no prior training. The instructor showed you, taught you everything needed in less then 7 minutes and let you take off alone? I’m impressed. Or maybe horrified.

    It’s possible I guess. I took CDL road test in basement of a courthouse. Verbally. Of course I had few thousand mikes OTR but where I was not required to have a CDL.
    The instructor realized I had more experience then truck driving school wonders.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  18. bipe215

    bipe215

    Messages:
    1,367
    Likes Received:
    2,179
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Location:
    East Tennessee
    You’re right. Someone earlier in the thread had said it was his first solo.
    Thanks for pointing that out.
     
    Paul53 likes this.
  19. HJB

    HJB Banned

    Messages:
    1,500
    Likes Received:
    1,593
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    No, that should read 6:45, or 6 hours and 45 minutes or 405 minutes, take your pick. My mistake and I will fix it, thanks.
     
    Paul53 likes this.
  20. Paul53

    Paul53 MAKE HATE WRONG AGAIN!

    Messages:
    13,254
    Likes Received:
    20,039
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Location:
    ME, TX, NM.
    Just needs to widen the pattern a few miles.