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Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Altaris, Sep 13, 2012.
How are you on free speech for Religious organizations?
Okay, so all religious violence is acceptable to you with the exception of Islam. Got it.
These have been found on a global level, not just isolated incidents. It is ironic that you can accept a hypothesized asterorid hitting earth in the past and causing a cataclysim, for which there is entirely no evidence, in lieu of a global flood for which there is plenty of evidence in the fossil record.
You mean no evidence other than the gigantic submerged crater found off the coast of the Yucatan peninsula and the KT boundary layer of iridium that averages 30 times greater than normal levels and is found in geological formations all over the planet and is found in greater concentrations as you move closer to the impact point and lesser as you move away.
You mean no evidence other than that, right?
Stuff has hit the planet before, but are you sure that's what killed off the dinosaurs? Aren't there some other theories, like disease, climate change etc.
That is a pretty good illustration of taking a couple facts, and weaving them into a good story though.
"Sure" is a big word in science, but I find the sudden change in the fossil record above and below the KT boundary to be pretty convincing, yes. Are there other theories, of course, but you have to go through some pretty tough mental gymnastics to accept one of those above the much more obvious explanation of an impact event. Occam's Razor and all that...
I'm actually surprised King took that position. Most theists I've talked to accept the impact evidence and assume an enormous tsunami as the result. Still a bit of confirmation bias, but at least one more consistent with observations.
The introduction to the article is ....
The following is an excerpt from Why Are You Atheists So Angry? 99 Things That Piss Off the Godless by Greta Christina.
I have never known an angry Atheists ... this seems to be a new phenomena .... Atheists are among the most tolerant, slow to boil people IMO. Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins are prime examples.
Are you aware that the fossil record that was being compiled in the early 19th century was being done by geologists who were primarily Christian. They abandoned any attempt at Flood Geology explaining what they found because it was completely untenable. This was decades before Darwin's Origin, so you can't really apply a science community-wide conspiracy of propping up evolution.
Among the sedimentologists responsible for finding the underground water, oil, coal, uranium, etc. that power our world, and whose livelihood depends on their success, I don't think you'll find many that are basing their work on Flood Geology.
Just admit that you are willing to ignore physics/cosmology, biology, botany, paleontology, anthropology, geology, chemistry and another other branch of science when it contradicts your interpretation of scripture.
Is there any amount of evidence that could cause you to accept that the earth's age is in the billions of years and that evolution accounts for the variety of life that we have today (and that went extinct in the past)?
Yes. You in fact told me I was being unkind to my chick because I was not marrying her. That I was treating her son (in reality daughter, your mistake because you love putting words in people’s mouths) as though he were a burden. Others of your ilk have called us materialistic, hedonistic, bent on consuming sex and drugs, that were are not capable of being good people because we obviously cannot be moral people without following the bible. And you continually accuse us of desiring only to persecute the religious, why else would we come here. Yes… you people absolutely have said this over and over again.
I would tend to think you have an unrealistic standard for evidence then. You believe every word of an archaic book written by desert savages… yet you reject the scientific findings of natural processes. The evidence for which literally fills entire buildings. Not to mention historical facts that clearly indicate that the bible was an invention of the jews and much of its beginnings were borrowed from cultures that predate the Jews. The Sumerians were the first to tell tales of a global flood. The Jews stole that. Abraham selected one of the Mesopotamian Gods to represent the one true God. The jews stole and rewrote the Babylonian garden creation myth. We know this. These are facts. You can stand in willful ignorance of them all you want. But we can now plainly see that the bible is based on a mish mash of other culture’s religions. And these facts have been presented to you over and over again. And you continue to play your little game of “I see no evidence presented”. You have a habit of bailing on debates once you’ve been shut down only to return the next day to claim no evidence was given. And you claim we are persecutors because we never relent.
No you haven’t. We love when you guys say things because we love to dismantle the absurd. If you never wrote anything there wouldn’t be any nonsense for use to take apart. Please… keep writing.
To evangelize is to spread the gospel. I reject the gospel outright. I guess you might call me the Anti-Evangelist. I consider myself to be an Anti-Religionist in that we now know enough about our ancient history and our evolutionary beginnings to know that religion is a man made invention and that it was used as a means to bring order to our savage beginnings. It was man’s first attempt at explaining his origins. Ultimately a failed one… but nevertheless a definite step in our growth from rock smashing savages to bronze spear chucking brutes.
Anger? In what part of that statement do you see anger. I was helping a budding free thinker through the early stages of waking up from the delusion that is religion. It’s a very real process. Those who are still deluded will attack you because they fear you. They will shun you and treat you like you’re evil. Many religious people will lash out at new non-believers in the hopes of bringing them back into the fold. Fear is one way religion controls people. Fear of being outcast, fear of hell, fear of death.
Either you don’t understand these concepts or you’re simply being dishonest here. Evidence has been offered over and over again on evolution and you simply choose to be ignorant of it. Either that or your education level prevents you from understanding it. Much like myself looking at high order math equations… that stuff is just over my head and I’m not ashamed to admit it. Takes a special intellect… a higher intellect to grasp those things. And though I understand the principles of evolution, some of the biology and chemistry of it can be quite complex. I am by no means an expert in either of these fields and do my best to understand them. So I can definitely see why someone who chooses to be willfully ignorant of them would have no clue what they’re about.
But let us take a second here to make a clear distinction. Let’s say for a moment that everything we know about the beginnings of the universe and the origins of our species was untrue. Let’s say we learned that we were completely wrong. Doesn’t matter. We know enough about your bible to know it is an invention of man, borrowed from other cultures, and most certainly didn’t get it right. Evolution doesn’t have to be true in order for your archaic mythology to be wrong. The two have nothing to do with each other.
I can see how it seems that way to you. You keep throwing your 2700 year old story book against the wall of reason as evidence and when it doesn’t stick you take it personally. It isn’t personal… your book is just proof of nothing at all.
Which are unprovable? You’ll have to be specific here.
This statement doesn’t really make any sense. It sounds like the ramblings of a mad man. Can you tell me which views are like jello… and what being jello like means exactly. You sound like you’re getting frustrated and speaking in nonsense.
Then you are being willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest. The concepts presented have been evidenced to the satisfaction of the scientific community. You have to understand, the people that work on this stuff are smarter than you. They’re smarter than I. I can understand why you might press your nose against the glass pounding with your fists as your brain struggles and fails to comprehend these concepts. But it doesn’t make them any less accurate. And they grow and change as our understanding grows with new exciting evidence. You ideals remain stagnant and motionless in the snap shot of man’s infancy of 2700 years ago. And your ignorance is made absolute with the ideal of “Man is so arrogant that he thinks he knows more about his origins and the universe now than he did 2700 years ago.” Understand whether it is your intention or not, that is what you’re saying. That a group of bronze age desert scribes knew more about mankind’s origins and the origins of the universe, with no scientific training or education, than our current scientists do. Think about that. They inject God into their archaic reasoning and you choose that over real science. Doesn’t that sound like a small mind at work?
Ignorance is truly bliss.
Which only proves my assertion that religion is a security blanket for adults. That is why you suspend reason and intellect. Because it makes you feel better. Not because it’s true. You’re an example of how a human being can convince themselves of the most absurd nonsense as long as it makes them feel safe. Much like a child pulling the blankets over their head to protect them from monsters… believing that that thin sheet of cloth will stop the horrors in their imagination. Your religion is no different than that thin sheet of cloth. And it has grown threadbare and worn as our knowledge has increased.
And this goes back to the first question you asked in this post. Because I disagree with you, I must be angry and full of venom. Grrrrrrrr Raaaarrrrr! LOL.
I find it ironic that evidence to support our current understanding of these concepts has been presented to you and your kind over and over and over again and yet you still claim no evidence has been forthcoming. Again, willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.
Well, if I were going to write a book meant to control people… I would definitely add a part that says something like [In Patrick Stewart Voice] (And there will come a day when men will think they have come to understand the world and creation, and they will say unto you that God’s word is untrue. I say unto you these men are of the devil and they only mean to lead you to eternal torment. Grrrrrrrr Raaaarrrrrr! Avoid education. Avoid questioning dogma. If you believe anything other than what is in these pages you will surely suffer for all eternity. I am God your Lord Raaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrr!)
It’s the fence that keeps in the sheep.
Well written, thoughtful, and represents my views EXACTLY. Thank you for putting into the written word what I am unable to.
No more condescending than this post. You claim you are among an elite few, and that the rest of us slobbering masses cannot help that we are damned. Its just your invisible friends will. However I have the power of evidence on my side. You keep pointing to a stagnant dogma that we know to be an invention of man. I however point towards evidence that what you would call Creation presents all by itself. Evidence that you and your kind reject over and over again. I dont mean ignorant to mean stupid. I dont think youre stupid. There is Ignorant, meaning unaware of the facts. There is willful ignorance which is choosing to ignore the facts when theyre right in your face. And by uneducated I dont mean stupid either. I mean you have an education that does not include these disciplines. You are highly educated in apologetics and biblical scripture it seems. But not so much in the fields of biology, chemistry, cosmology, physics, and so on. Dont feel alone, my education is self provided in these instances. I have masters in business. So what I learn about these disciplines is through whatever I can read in my spare time. But many of you reject it as though learning about science is evil and unchristian. So to a degree its a state of self-induced ignorance.
You need to read some of Snowbirds, Kingarthurs, or scherberts (or whatever it is) posts. But I for one am not bothered by it. I can take a little bloody nose. Its ok. You present hypocrisy where there is none.
You obviously do know what a whack-a-mole is then. What you call the word of God is an invention of man. You can believe it all you like. But the second you present it as proof of anything
we are going to be here to dismantle it. We are interested in mans future. We will not allow our world and universe to be explained through ancient mythology that we know to be man-made without offering the truth. You are more than free to present it
just dont get upset when we smack it down.
share where this is happening. I dont recall attacking someones religion simply because they like the Glock 23. I mean, clearly the Glock 19 is the superior firearm
but that has nothing to do with religion. Although I do believe Jesus would also choose the G19 over the G23 simply because of ammo costs. Hed have more to give to the poor after a range trip.
Damn that sounds cool! Can I use that? Sounds like Imperial Guard from Star Wars or something. Im gonna get a custom patch made for my EDC Bag.
There you go again. Thats the religious outlook, that anyone who disagrees should be silenced. You want to present your dogma unchallenged. Not gonna happen. If you cant take a little bloody nose
That is an elitist statement. Its ok LOL
just understand thats what is meant when youre accused of being condescending.
No True Scotsman I see. No sorry, you will not be allowed to use this to slither out of your religions responsibility for the millions of deaths and torment done in the name of YOUR god and christ (I intentionally choose not to capitalize those in case youre wondering).
Nonsense. It is an archaic script written by men who were less educated than your average 12 year old. It isnt anymore complex than that. Apologists attempt to insert more complexity than there is in an effort to keep it elusive and vague so that it can continually be twisted and turned to evade being dismantled. But it is what it is. Ancient writings by men who knew very little of what was happening around them.
Untrue. The bible never killed anyone. Well that we know of. Maybe one of the huge ones fell out a window and smashed someones head in. But the book itself has never hurt anyone. Its followers are the ones that have killed, raped, and tortured in its name and the name of the god by which it was inspired. I have an issue with religious people.
its the people. The book just sits there. But you are right that the book carries a hateful message and instructs the people behave so horribly.
Hmmm it does that all by itself. By being so obviously full of holes.
Ill believe it when I see it. And Ill make buds with him then.
That god is a selfish, cruel, egomaniac that tortures people much like a child burning ants with a magnifying glass in the sun for his own glory? What a wonderful being this god is.
what do you think (just by what they write) of the level of godliness of Snowbird, Kingarthur, and Scherbert (whatever it is)? Youve read many of their posts. You think they are the religious damned? Or true regenerated chosen of Christ?
But we now know it isnt his work. The bible says it took god 6 days to make all this. That is simply false. It says he made us of dust and earth
we know thats not true. We know we were not created separate from every other living thing on this planet
that we are a part of an all encompassing process of evolution, natural selection, and adaptation. And no
youre not allowed to say Well maybe this is the way god brought about creation. No
your book doesnt say that. You dont get to steal the work of dedicated scientists and make it a part of your dogma in order to evade its dismantling. Your book clearly states how god did things, and you can tell its the writings of simpler minds. Your book got it wrong. So we know it to be false. We dont need to prove that god does or does not exist to know the men that wrote the bible knew nothing of how nature works.
There is no record of a worldwide flood. This is simply untrue. If my memory serves me there was massive flood in the mediteranian area ages ago. This is more than likely where the Sumerian legend of the great flood originates. And the writers of your bible stole this mythology and made it their own. Your bible is a mish mash of other cultures myths and legends that predate the jews.
Which is not mentioned in your magic book. You do not get to make this a part of your dogma. The Big Bang or the Expanding Universe are not biblical.
The appeal of Christianity is not evidence of its truth. Otherwise the same could be said for Islam. It, like Islam has been used by men as a means to power, to control people, to instill obedience via fear with a twist of salvation. This is exactly my point. In mans infancy when we were far less educated and far more ignorant religion was the ultimate free lunch. It explained everything with God Did It!. And the more we learn about our world and cosmos the fewer places your God has left to hide. Believe all you like. You will be counted among those that eventually died as deluded men holding on to an archaic mythology which man, at current, has the understanding to look beyond.
This threads like a bar fight, pointless but fun. Anyone want a beer? I'm buying.
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Which "wonders" are these?
No... one thing off and you get disabilities, malformations, birth defects. Is God such a inept creator?
Watch the lack of movement in a person born as a quad and ask yourself... "Did God screw the pooch?"
Luck? I don't believe in luck. It is the result of proper conditions. If the conditions were not proper... we wouldn't be here to wonder. But there is nothing that points to a God of any sorts. You simply choose to inject that as the answer to what you see around you. Pretty lazy in fact.
It evolved with us. We used to crap where we stood and bash each other over the head with rocks. Much of our species was more than likely born out of rape, or the strongest males forcibly taking mates. We're better than that now. Not because of god... but because we learn and pass that knowledge to our young. It's the defining principle of culture.
What is love? Define it? Prove that it exists. Show me that what you call love is the same as what I call it. Who loves their partner more? You or me? Prove it? How much does love weigh? What does it smell like? Taste like? What color is love? What is it made up of?
Functions of nature.
Excellent. Please provide these statistics. I'd like to pass these equations on to our math department. Once proven accurate and valid... the discussion will be over. This is the evidence we've all been asking for. Please... by all means... blow my mind.
I don't drink.
Why is this a standard reply from non-drinkers? The question was "Anyone want a beer?" Nobody asked you if you drank; an appropriate answer would have been "No, thank you".
Sorry for the tangent, but your reply reminded me of some of the prideful snottiness that we hear from the believers around here.
Just a statement of fact. Not meant to be prideful. My chick would take a free drink in a second. But not beer. She likes mixed drinks. I like it when she drinks. I can take advantage of her lack of good judgement. And she always thanks me for it in the morning. LOL.
LOL, as you were. oops, I mean
You are on quite the roll this evening G36Shooter. I enjoyed reading your treatise.
(even if you don't drink)
Outstanding. Where? Could you provide some specific examples that demonstrate a simultaneous flood all around the world?
What are we talking about here? The KT Extinction event? You really need to be more specific about things.
I'll take Bacardi Oakheart and Cherry Pepsi, not fountain pop, cold, no ice.