The Story Of .40

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by thesig357, Aug 19, 2015.

Tags:
  1. thesig357

    thesig357

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Location:
    Tn
    I was a junior in high school when they introduced the .40 s&w by Glock at the Shot Show and its adoption by law enforcement agencies around the country. First there was the Miami Shootout and that shooting in New York when it took 19 shots to bring down a guy with their 147gr 9mm jhp in use by LEOs at the time I purchased 200 rounds of ammo one night to test the stuff that police were using remmington, federal, winchester and speer out of 200 rounds of all their jhp ammo only 5 that's RIGHT 5 expanded I was in total shock this what our police are stuck using holy **** then came the new .40 s&w that gave better performance than the wonder nines in use at that time Most agencies did not want to take the chance on this federal load in use in Illinois(9bple) I just find it exciting that I was old enough to enjoy the birth of a major caliber and see it deployed. Just like others did in 1901(9mm) and in 1911(.45acp). The .40 saw its growing pains kBs and bad brass from Federal bullet set back problems and find out which loads work the best . They all had their growing pains and lived through it to become a mainstay in firearms. I was just wondering if any of you guys were adults like me to see the rise of a service caliber a good one and your thoughts on this great caliber.
    Thank you
     
  2. eb07

    eb07 Sharkin'

    Messages:
    6,078
    Likes Received:
    3,750
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Location:
    Third Rock From the Sun
    FYI the NY shooting was with 9mm 115gr FMJ ammo

    The miami shooutout was more improper felony stop procedure/lack of backup than ammo. Also that is what happens when you bring a handgun to a rifle battle.

    40 was the answer to a problem that never existed IMHO.
     
    Nanuk likes this.

  3. agtman

    agtman 10mm Philosopher

    Messages:
    5,607
    Likes Received:
    5,039
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2001
    Location:
    Midwest
    Agree. The 10mm AUTO worked fine. They should have stuck with it.

    The .40 was invented to satisfy those in law enforcement whose recoil-tolerance maxes-out at about the level of a watered-down 10mm stuffed into a 9mm-size gun.

    Easier on wuddle hands, and certainly easier to carry all day. :whistling:

    After all, being in L.E. is all about being comfortable. :cop:
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    oldman11 likes this.
  4. Glock 23 Nutter

    Glock 23 Nutter

    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    1,212
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    A then-new Firestar M-40 was my First CF Auto pistol. (after tryin', and dislikin', a COLT Officer's .45 ACP.)

    That fine pistol was sold to a pesterin' friend, and replaced w/ a then-new GLOCK G23.2.

    The Outstanding .40/180 gr. has been the core of my CF auto acquisitions and use.

    I even got my boys a G23.4/ea., to grow into, as I expect they will grow to be men as well.

    :supergrin:




    Nutter
     
  5. SCmasterblaster

    SCmasterblaster G17 carrier since 1989 Millennium Member

    Messages:
    21,060
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 1999
    Location:
    Hartford, Vermont
    That NYC shooting was just another case of 9mm FMJRN failure.
     
  6. SCmasterblaster

    SCmasterblaster G17 carrier since 1989 Millennium Member

    Messages:
    21,060
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 1999
    Location:
    Hartford, Vermont
    I don't own a .40 S&W yet. I don't need one. I compete with my two SA M1911s, and I CCW my G17 9mm.
     
  7. oldman11

    oldman11

    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    2,830
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Location:
    Texas
    Yeppers, you're right. Kind of like why they quit using the 357 Magnum before that back in the old days. I know the SS was using 357sig for awhile, but I don't know If they are still using them or not now.
     
  8. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

    Messages:
    30,201
    Likes Received:
    16,763
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    What test exactly are you referring to when you say only 5 out of 200 rounds expanded? Some kind of backyard testing on your part? And what does failure to expand have to do with them being 9mm? If you're saying bigger is better then why bother with .40? .45 is > than .40 to a larger degree than .40 > 9mm.

    The 9BPLE was a great load for the day. There are better ones nowadays but it's still pretty effective.
     
  9. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

    Messages:
    30,201
    Likes Received:
    16,763
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Even if it did exist back then it's certainly gone away since then.
     
  10. SCmasterblaster

    SCmasterblaster G17 carrier since 1989 Millennium Member

    Messages:
    21,060
    Likes Received:
    1,907
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 1999
    Location:
    Hartford, Vermont
    I'd have to agree with you about the .40. The .45 ACP cartridge has been doing an admirable job of dropping bad guys since 1911.
     
  11. thesig357

    thesig357

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Location:
    Tn
    cowboy yes a police officer and myself did some test through some media back then but its just the hps did not perform like they should have and I personaly did not own a .40 until 2001 up until then I still used a 9mm
     
  12. BBMW

    BBMW

    Messages:
    2,755
    Likes Received:
    2,514
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Actually full power 10mm tends to overpentrate, so the extra velocity it generates is largely wasted, unless someone would design bullets specifically for it's velocity, that would expand enough to keep them in human targets. Also the size of the cartridge tends to push it into large frame guns. That can work, but it's generally not convenient for other than duty (exposed) carry.

    The .40 combines the best aspects of t a lot of cartridges. You get the large mag capacity of the 9mm guns. You get the .65'+ expansion and 12"+ penetration of the better .45 ACP rounds. And the guns tend to be easily concealable medium frame designs.

    If there's a problem, some of the 9mm based designs weren't beef up enough to deal with this round. The early .40 Glocks and some HKs come to mind. But in guns that are designed for it (Glock Gen 4, SIG P229 come immediately to mind.) it's like the best carry round.

     
  13. fortyofforty

    fortyofforty

    Messages:
    12,667
    Likes Received:
    6,767
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    The Miami Shootout was fought partially with 115 grain Winchester Silvertips that failed to penetrate deeply enough to instantly stop the fight, which is why the FBI switched to 147 grain Hydra Shoks. The .40 S&W is a decent mid-power round, much like the .357 SIG, that packs decent power in a compact package. If you need more power, step up to a .50 caliber weapon of some type. .50 GI or .50 AE come to mind. All handgun cartridges are compromises of some sort. Bring a rifle if you really need one.
     
  14. Nanuk

    Nanuk

    Messages:
    1,092
    Likes Received:
    780
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Location:
    At home
    I was perfectly happy carrying my 4" 686 357 magnum loaded with 145 grain STHP's for many years before the advent of the 40 Short and weak. My agency (USBP) adopted it early with a 155 JHP @ 1250 fps, which was rough on guns, the Beretta's did not last long with them. It was later slowed down to 1200 fps, which was about the time the HST was developed and we went with that. They now use a 180 grain HST.
     
  15. gooffeyguy

    gooffeyguy In the STL

    Messages:
    3,766
    Likes Received:
    1,874
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    What were those .357 magnum 147gr STHP's rated at?

    EDITED: To reflect that I was asking about the 357 magnum rounds used in the S&W 686

    Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  16. Glock 23 Nutter

    Glock 23 Nutter

    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    1,212
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    I have a LWD 5.3" 357SIG Bbl.for my G23.4...

    The 147 gr./ HDY XTP makes an interesting field/ trail round.

    147 XTP/1325 fps/ 573 lb-ft
    *0.0" @ 25 yd/ 0.5" sight height

    +0.0" @ 25 yd/ 1266 fps/ 530 lb-ft
    -0.9" @ 50 yd/ 1213 fps/ 480 lb-ft
    -3.2" @ 75 yd/ 1165 fps/ 443 lb-ft
    -7.1" @ 100 yd/ 1122 fps/ 411 lb-ft
    -12.8" @ 125 yd/ 1085 fps/ 385 lb-ft
    -20.3" @ 150 yd/ 1053 fps/ 362 lb-ft ( Note: This is 9mm +P / 147 gr/ muzzle Velocity and Energy)




    Nutter
     
  17. timmay

    timmay

    Messages:
    1,226
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Location:
    Ohio
    Not the same as flesh and bone, but I fired a couple 147 XTP's into a wet clay creek bank at 1280 fps and they fragmented badly. They're not designed for Sig velocities. The 140gr or 158gr .357 XTP's are better suited than the .355 147gr for woods loads. They're more heavily constructed, and will hold together and penetrate deeper.
     
  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt

    Messages:
    25,631
    Likes Received:
    26,967
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Location:
    CA Central Coast
    I remember the birth of the .40 S&W.

    I remember wondering if it would suffer the same fate as the .41 Action Express ('86?), or the earlier 10mm Auto ('83?), but then considered that with both S&W and Winchester behind it, and not using a rebated rim case, that it might have some potential longevity.

    Turns out it has. ;)
     
  19. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 JABRONI AUTIST

    Messages:
    7,354
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Location:
    Boogaloo HQ
    Big fan of the .40, it offers good caliber, capacity, and weapon size.
     
  20. 9mm +p+

    9mm +p+

    Messages:
    1,886
    Likes Received:
    240
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Location:
    Old Dominion
    Yep, remember it well. 1991 first year in LE, carried a 686; with Fed 125's complete faith in it. Talk of new caliber started .40 was to be next. Bought a SW 4006 and a case of Win 180 JHP, deptt went 9mm instead go figure. Loved that 4006, great gun and theWin load worked on everything I used it on. Still have some of that load. .40 is a solid caliber better than a 9mm just as designed, new loads or not physics are the same, period.