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The latest economic shutdown 2020 deniers argument....

  1. Thread title purposefully similar to another thread currently going around on GT. No harm or insult intended.

    I thought it would be interesting to flip this argument on it’s head, maybe give some people perspective of the “Convid-19 deniers” argument.

    So, let’s say that tomorrow Trump comes out and says, the economy is now the number one crisis facing the US and world, everyone should leave their homes, go to work, visit their favorite restaurant, book trips and cruises, spend the stimulus money that they’re about to receive. Essentially, return to normal life x10 to get the economy running. Upon his statements, leaders of local municipalities mandate by law, that everyone must participate. After all, if we don’t do these things, the unemployment lines will grow, the economy will spin into a recession or worse, businesses will close their doors, many will be displaced from the their homes, starving, and ultimately die from many different ailments, including Covid-19. We must do this for the greater good!!!

    For all the “Covid-19 believers” would you participate. Would you believe such mandates to be constitutional? Would you even believe the economy is the number one crisis, even though politicians, well respected economists, media, etc., are all trying to convince you of such?

    Or, perhaps you’d rather make up your own mind about what’s best for you; based on your own research, situation, ethics, and values.

    For the record, I probably fall into the “Covid-19 deniers” category here on GT. I do believe it’s a real thing with consequences we don’t fully understand. I believe more people will die from it and that truly is tragic, but not more or less so than all other deaths. However, I believe we should be able to act as our own conscience dictates. I’m not asking that anyone who believes this to be extremely dangerous behave in any way other than their own conscience dictates and their best interests. Certainly, if they want to remain self quarantined, they are more than welcome to do so. In fact, I’ll be happy to leave groceries, and TP, on their doorstep if need be. I’ll even use my last can of Lysol to hose that **** down before I leave if that’s the only way they’ll accept it.

    So, what say you, “believers”?
     
  2. I would stay holed up for now. This bug is bad.
     
  3. You can’t. You must comply with the mandates or face “force of law”.
     
  4. Here is my thing.

    Ignoring common wisdom does not just put me at risk, it puts every single person I come in contact with at risk, including my diabetic coworker, my 80 year old mother, my favorite hot single mom at the liquor store who cares for her elderly parents.

    Simply not worth the risk. I look like a Palestinian terrorist these days, have a shemagh on most of the day (best pollen filter ever) and my tacticool battle gloves, more for the additional grip strength (arthritis sucks dead whales) than anything else, but hey, barrier as well.
     
  5. Force me to do what?

    I’m semi retired. When I do work I work from home. Going to force me out of my house? Force me to get infected? That’s forcing my gun hand.
     
  6. Again, flip this argument on it’s head. The same things could be said about an economic depression: your diabetic coworker can’t buy his meds, your 80 year old mother won’t receive the quality of health care necessary due to financial hardship, your favorite hot single mom will no longer be able to support her parents when the liquor store closes- they could all end up homeless.

    Again, this is not about personal choice. I support, and I dare say all the other “deniers” support personal choice. But, that’s exactly what’s being taken from them.
     
  7. Exactly!!! But, currently are we not forcing “deniers” to do exactly the opposite of these things?

    They’re in their prime income years. They have to go out to work. Force them to stay in their house? Force them to financial ruin? Is that not forcing their gun hand?
     
  8. There is a difference in stopping the spread of this bug by sheltering and promoting the economy at the cost of lives. I think this bug is worse than we are letting on. This crap was one of my jobs in the Marines. Nuke and Chemical didn’t phase me. Bio gave me nightmares.

    I don’t want to live through an economy like post 1351.
     
  9. Then I tell the "law" to kiss my ass.
     
  10. From an economic standpoint it might be best to get everyone to go on with a normal routine. Most people would catch the Wuhan virus, be slightly sick for a few day and hopefully have some immunity after that. It would suck pretty badly for all those that needed medical attention. We really could have a few million dead but most of them would be old right?
    :fred:
    I think a couple more weeks of staying at home gives us time to get medical suppliers working 24/7. We will have a better sense of how dangerous this is and we can make more informed decisions. In the end it will be a compromise between safety and the economy.
     
  11. Too damn many people in the world as it is...
     
  12. Sorry, your argument makes no sense whatsoever. And yes, I get it, you are playing devil's advocate.

    However, the economy does not drive the human race, we drive the economy. Human interaction right now is dangerous, so we need to temporarily forego it. This is not permanent, and I for one still have to get out and work, however my situation is sort of unique in that I am a solo operator and don't interact with people. I also will not qualify for any type of income replacement, so I still have to make the doughnuts to get paid.
     
  13. There’s also a difference in keeping the economy going by working and promoting healthy living.
    I don’t want to live through an economy like 1930s Russia.
     
  14. My argument is not about the economy. It’s about people’s right to participate in the economy.
     
  15. I’m still working so far. I’m considered essential, but business is way down so that could change. Besides not being able to go to the bar or gym things have not changed much for me. Even after all this is over I believe people are going to rethink hanging in large groups or international travel for a long time to come.


    I find it interesting that the average person is supposed to have a 6-9 month emergency fund, save for retirement, invest, pay huge health insurance deductibles, save for kids college ect ect... but up until know, it’s been the best economy in decades, not to mention the tax reform bill (tax cuts and jobs act), and businesses shut down for a few weeks and all of a sudden they’re all going broke and the economy is in shambles.
     
  16. 1. there is no "people's right" to anything;
    2. on the humorous side, there have been federal lawsuits about the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness . . . all of which lost.
    3. in the realistic perspective, any "people's right" is simply a philosophical reflection. When you have the bucks to hire a decent lawyer, when you have a court that does not view the constitution as an organic document, when you have a number of years left in your life to litigate (some of the federal lawsuits between states last 50 and more years), you can have a "people's right" established - after the fact of it being denied.

    OP thinks he is original. You are already forced to participate in the economy in many ways. The Glocktalk forums are loaded with challenges like "prove it to me". https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed.htm
    Take a couple of hours to read this material. It explains in high school level English exactly what the Federal Reserve System does.

    When you want to buy a new car, do you have the full purchase price in cash? There was a time when that was what was required. The Fed regulates the length of a federally insured car loan. Why is the maximum 7 years instead of what used to be 4 years? To ENCOURAGE more people to spend, to live on credit, to not save.

    I live in a neighborhood wherein younger people are moving in and the minimum house price is well over $1million. They drive Teslas (wait until they find that Tesla does not sell the car diagnostic codes and an owner must go to an approved Tesla repair station), BMWs, Jags, Range Rovers and Jeeps which receive low marks on cost of owning. How many of those people do you think save up $90,000 to buy a car for cash? None, most likely. They borrow because of tax policy, federal regulations influence them to spend beyond their immediate means.
     
  17. Stop/reduce alcohol consumption. Take a walk outside or find a good book to read. These “What if” thread’s always involve circular logic.

    I see no point in conjecture.
     
  18. You guys must really be bored to get caught up in a straw argument over a fantasy order invented by a TDS sufferer...
     
  19. I’m cynical by nature. Is this virus a real problem? Yes, it is. Do people die from it? Yes, they do. However, I feel that the whole thing is being blown out of proportion. At some point, we’re going to have to strike a balance between the risks involved in going back to our daily routine, and tanking the economy.

    The constant drumbeat from the media that the sky is falling isn’t helping anything, either.
     
  20. Covid19 is a threat. I remain prudent, informed, aware, patient,calm and kind. Prepare for the worst ,hope for the best. I'll decide my course of action.

    I've been noticing that people are starting to crack and panic and worry are setting in. Reason I limit my news viewing to the basics. Freaking drama mongers.
     
  21. I'm guessing Bay Area, where there is no middle class. I couldn't buy my home today.
     
  22. Of course this is true if you spread any communicable disease. Flu, Shingles, Chicken Pox, E=coli, Tuberculosis.... Flu alone kills tens of millions of Americans every year. So my advice is to never go out....ever....
     
  23. I take George Carlins advice. I swim in raw sewage to strengthen my immune system. He's my mentor. He and Cosmo Kramer.
     
  24. Just for the sake of accuracy, flu kills tens of thousands of Americans not millions.
     
  25. Now there you go again, quibbling over a few decimal points!:duel:
     
  26. Hahaha
     
  27. I sort of follow that advice myself. Despite being called a chicken chit, I don't:
    1. go to large sporting events wherein the sponsors allow beer to be sold and chintz on hiring security;
    2. go to bars in the bad side of town which have bouncers posted at the door;
    3. go to feed the homeless on the streets surrounding US post office 90066;
    4. go stand in line outside the local national chain supermarket with a basket.

    I quit my gym years ago. As a result, I do not have the infections suffered by two brothers who swim 5 days a week in commercial gymnasiums.
     
  28. That's what I meant...and what I deserve for trying to post a message on my phone without my glasses...lol