The invisible war

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Mrs. VR, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. Mrs. VR

    Mrs. VR Sharon, you will be missed.

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    It's shocking, horrifying, any of those words you can think of. I strongly encourage anyone interested in how the military in general handles sexual assault against women AND men to watch it. The numbers are staggering. As a result of this award winning documentary, legislation is making it's way through congress to change how these cases are prosecuted. ( ie: a fair judicial system, not an omnipowerful CO). It's shameful and a disgrace to the fine men and women who serve this country and deserve far better.

    Also check out: www.notinvisible.org
     
  2. AK_Stick

    AK_Stick AAAMAD

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    There is no making the sexual assault/harassment system in the .mil fair.

    It's always been slanted against men, and always will be.

    The "pending" changes are all for looks. Nothing short of removing women will fix it. And that's not an acceptable fix either.
     

  3. Mrs. VR

    Mrs. VR Sharon, you will be missed.

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    Against men? You think? You might want to take a look at the actual numbers. Even without women, there is a shocking amount if man on man assault and MOST probably never gets reported.
     
  4. HiddenEyes

    HiddenEyes It can be done

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    Just what the army needs, a social justice crusade telling them what to do.



    Mr. HE:cool:
     
  5. Mrs. VR

    Mrs. VR Sharon, you will be missed.

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    It's not the army. It's ALL the forces. They've paid lip service to it for decades while looking the other way. I know people have gut reactions but if you can watch this documentary and it doesn't make you think that some kind of change is necessary, I'd be seriously shocked. Even the military knows it needs to fix this mess, and has been more vocal about it recently. There are many former investigators, JAG's, etc in the documentary. Up to top brass. It's really nuts the way things are swept under the rug and the victim intimidation that occurs.
     
  6. hogship

    hogship A republic, if you can keep it! Silver Member

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    OK, I'll bite, Mrs. VR......

    Sometimes it's difficult to have anyone take you seriously on these forums. I have my thoughts, but do you have any solutions, or thoughts, or whatever.....?

    ooc
     
  7. Detectorist

    Detectorist

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    I have been in the Army. The most common scenario I encountered was one where an attractive young lower grade female willingly engages in a relationship with a much higher ranking male. After the breakup, accusations of sexual harassment ensue. Almost always.

    I think there is more to the numbers and statistics than meets the eye.
     
  8. hogship

    hogship A republic, if you can keep it! Silver Member

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    My last active duty day in the USArmy was in 1970.......back then, sexual assaults were not common at all. Men and women were pretty much separated in almost all activities. Homosexuality was there, but you had to seek it out to find it.

    Could it be that this kind of military is really the best, in order to be the kind of military that is ready to do it's duty? Hate to leave out women and homosexuals......but they may be better off to serve in separated units.

    I'll probably be accused of being anti-gay and anti-women for saying these things, but it sure does seem like the coherence of our military in past times worked out for the better back then.......just relaying some thought.

    ooc
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  9. AirCav

    AirCav Out Front! CLM

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    This is going to get lively. :popcorn:
     
  10. Sainte

    Sainte

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    I've seen this quite a few times in 25+years. The man is always held accountable, the woman ALWAYS treated like a "victim" even when it was "common knowledge" the two in question were a "secret couple".


    I have also seen the guy on guy deal where two gay dudes get caught and then it's just a matter of who yells "r a p e" first.


    plus, you have to be very, VERY careful of everything you say and do, not too mention the situations you put yourself in when dealing with the opposite sex. I will not go into an office or even a warehouse alone with a female. I ALWAYS leave a door open and I make it perfectly and clearly understood about what I am speaking of when dealing with them. If there is a need for reprimand or counseling, I ALWAYS have a witness of my grade or higher present whether the female agrees to it or not.


    those actions have saved my bacon more than once in 25 years.


    do sexual assaults happen? yes.


    to the extent of these reports? I doubt it.


    the military has an inherent mindset of "the male is guilty" no matter what. This ranges from arguments to divorces. The military WILL side with the female.
     
  11. Sainte

    Sainte

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    I have definitely seen a change since 1988 when I joined. Women we absorbed with little adjustment because we already knew the standards were going to make them liabilities (for the most part) to our unit rather than advantages.


    with gays, oh boy, it is something else. I get disgusted hearing guys or girls talk about how they picked up a "partner" (same sex) over the weekend. I don't allow my straight guys to talk like that but, when I try to squash the gays, I called "bigoted" and "close minded" and of course the command folds on me with little to no support other than a finger waving....
     
  12. Mrs. VR

    Mrs. VR Sharon, you will be missed.

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    *my* answer is exactly the same as it is when anyone brings up new gun laws; enforce the ones on the books with real penalties and people will get the idea. I really really hope someone takes the time to watch it. Most of you know me, I'm not a " the woman is always right, men are bad" person.( I know without a doubt there are false claims, and I believe there are those who take foolish risks,) Neither is this documentary. It's not even about the assaults themselves, so much as what follows.

    I'd love to discuss with others who have viewed it. It's on netflix streaming and about an hour and a half. It's pretty heart rending actually.

    For the poster who said it didn't used to be common, I'd venture to guess it went on more than you ever knew and went unreported. The men who assault other men also are typically straight, btw. It seems to happen in groups and is a power thing.
     
  13. Mrs. VR

    Mrs. VR Sharon, you will be missed.

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    Just to be clear, I have no affiliation with this group, the documentary just greatly moved me.
     
  14. Caver 60

    Caver 60

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    My last duty station, a female two striper got caught wearing the married full Colonels dress blue jacket and nothing else in his office late one night. Torpedoed his career, and rightfully so.

    But he wasn't forcing her. I know of several other similar cases during the years I spent in the service.
     
  15. hogship

    hogship A republic, if you can keep it! Silver Member

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    Well.....that would be me. I tend to disagree, because there is not much that went on, that didn't make it into the "grapevine". News travels fast in a group that lives, works, and recreates together.

    I haven't seen the documentary, but have seen the trailer. Don't subscribe to Netflix so, not sure how I can see it.....unless it's available at the local video rental.

    Do you mean the "power thing" is not necessarily a sexual assault, but an assault against a man, by a group of men as a way to make them subservient to the group? This seems like what might go on in a prison environment. It would be hard to keep something like this a secret in the army of the 60s and early 70s.......for the same reason why it's hard to keep secrets of sexual assaults in a group of men who live in such a personal living condition. (Barracks back then were very open, and probably a lot different than they are today.)

    ooc
     
  16. Tiro Fijo

    Tiro Fijo

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    As documentaries are meant to do. It is up to the person watching to determine objectivity.




    One cannot merely toss young adults of separate sexes together into a mix and not expect problems. Nature will win out. The Feminists wanted an integrated Military and they got it. They are reaping what they have sown as the Navy has a 74% unintended pregnancy rate!!! That is mind numbing. The only way to prevent it is to cease integration, but to do so is anathema to the Feminists as that would imply failure.




    http://www.stripes.com/news/navy-seeks-to-combat-high-rate-of-unplanned-pregnancies-1.203122
     
  17. RGbiker

    RGbiker

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    As a supervisor, I was "advised" by my supervisor to counsel/reprimand female workers with a Union witness present in a room with working camera.

    This method of CYOA helped save quite a few careers of male supervisor's accused of sexual advances during a one on one counseling session.
     
  18. JimBianchi

    JimBianchi Da Da CLM

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    In my personal experience as a flight chief during the time security forces (LE had been coed for many years) were integrated with women, 1985-ish to 88, we had a huge problem with supervisors taking advantage of the young women.

    I know of at least one rape at that base in CA, on-going multiple times, that led to a girl trying to kill herself. I was sure of it because of what I saw, witnessed and was pressured to cover up.

    I was able to stop her attempt (pills and knife. I cuffed her and made her vomit waiting on EMS) and figure out what was really going on. She babbled, but I under stood. She was my troop and I never saw it. My boss was taking advantage of her, repeatedly, when she tried to stop it, he forced her, many times.

    This all led to her attempt. I got it figured out and told the chain of command what was happening, that it wasn't just a drunk girls cry for help. He was never prosecuted because of the alcohol involved made it seem like no one was reliable. And her suicide attempt made her completely unreliable as now she was decertified and it ruined her career.

    The NCO was taken away from supervision duties and eventually left the service voluntarily but was never charged.

    I became curious about what was going on around me, so I started asking quietly what was up. Seems like the married men (NCO's) where making the barracks a regular stop on and off duty.

    When some of the girls tried to move-on or just dump a guy, it got ugly. Women were threatened, two wives jumped girls in the parking lot on two different occasions.

    Privately these women where told shut up and we will get you crossed trained, most took the offer. I heard rape mentioned more than once, by girls I believed. No one was prosecuted.

    It was shocking, this under belly of cover-ups and deceit I knew nothing about for the years prior.

    In AK I know a flight of men (9) who had a party and were gang-banging a communications girl (E-4). I answered a scream/loud noise complaint and responded thinking they were playing some horror movie to loud at 2am.

    Nope.

    I checked all the dorm-rooms, TVs on, music loud, beer out, no one around. Then at the end of the hallway and a door moved, laundry door. I walked down there, open the door to see three guys taking one passed out girl, the other 6 watching, either done or waiting their turn.

    Young dumb me charges in the middle and pushed two off two, I grabbed her and a blanket and tried to pull her out. They blocked the door and where about to jump me when Jerry, my new flight chief, straight from four years at Leavenworth as a guard, came blasting in, knocking drunks over and shouting, he pulled the girl out as I was covering. Yes I un-shouldered my M16 and seriously thought I would have to use it.

    The girl was completely out of it, but I saw what I saw. Everyone with an officers bar was woken up and basically they agreed to not bring charges because the girl was so blackout drunk.

    If they had, a fourth of the SF squadron would have been charged, everyone's career from the commander on down would be ruined and no one wanted that. I did not get a say.

    I knew it was wrong then, I know it is wrong today.

    The Air Force closed ranks and let it go. When something bad happens that will make everyone look bad, the cover-up begins.

    A regular DA could have made charges stick, I am sure. Two eye witnesses for the gang rape, but NO they choose not to pursue.

    When I am asked by my young nieces and nephews about joining the military, I tell the girls to do anything else. And I tell the boys: Can you cover-up a crime because your boss tells you to? If the answer's no, then don't join.

    (Later I helped arrest a fellow SF in AK, he raped my buddies girlfriend and I raised hell when feet where dragging. "He said she said" was the complaint. I explained arrest the guy or find the body in the woods, she has a lot of friends who know what he did, he is not safe here on the backwoods nowhere AK. After black eyes appeared and he wasn't talking, they flew him out as soon as a plane could be booked. He got 7 years at Leavenworth. Jerry made a call to ensure a long terrible stay. Linda was still in counseling when I got to Elemendorf a month later for my back surgery. She was doing amazingly well and chose to separate from the service. Heck of a good airman the AF lost.)

    Yes, these are my personal first hand accounts and I am only one guy. I heard of hundreds like this that were covered up over the years. Hundreds.


    Mrs VR., sorry to over take your thread. Its a subject I have a stake in and would love to see the system change.
     
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  19. Big1

    Big1

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    You have a very interesting work cut out for you and all I can say in go for it and good luck, I spend twenty-eight years in the Army and all I got to say is your hands are full. We need or they need people like yourself on the front line. Be safe.
     
  20. vikingsoftpaw

    vikingsoftpaw DEPLORABLE ME!

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    A drinking buddy of mine was a company clerk attached to an MP company in Viet Man. Dudes raping each other in the ass. He had to do reports on all of that stuff. It's always been a problem.