The Future Of .40 Cal ?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by ChrisD46, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. LouisianaGunSlinger

    LouisianaGunSlinger

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    The thing about "testing" (and I use that term loosely) on YouTube from people like Paul Harrel is that you can't really extrapolate any meaningful data on that. Even the "meat targets" are all different from one another, you can get different results each time. Same with cinder blocks. The variation between density/etc. from block to block is pretty substantial. And sure, yeah, generally .40 is going to do more against a hard target like a cinder block or steel plate, but that tells us literally nothing about how effective a round is on a human attacker. A boxer can run up and punch a steel plate with more ft/lbs of energy than a .40 and knock it down with gusto, that doesn't mean it's going to be more effective at stopping an attacker than a bullet. Humans are basically big water sacks that absorb shock incredibly well. Tissue stretches, its elastic and bounces back to it's original shape when dealing with 9mm, .40, and .45. The only tissue that is permanently damaged is the tissue directly destroyed by the crush wound of the bullet passing through. That's why hollow points with sharp edges show such impressive performance, they rip and tear like a knife... because that's all any service caliber handgun is, essentially, a knife that bores through tissue. What matters is what tissue is destroyed.

    FBI-spec Ballistic Gel blocks aren't perfect by any means, but unlike amateur testing done on youtube, it actually does give meaningful data which conclusions can be drawn from. Each test block (if properly formulated according to spec) will give a very good comparison on how rounds perform against one another in a homogenous substance, and various published scientific papers have proven a strong correlation between how a bullet acts in gel and how it acts in the human body. LE agency after LE agency has confirmed this by comparing autopsies from actual OIS incidents with properly-conducted ballistic testing.
     
  2. Pandaz3

    Pandaz3

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    While I like Gel tests, so many are different like you say, as are cinder blocks, meat targets, and just about everything. Why pay attention to anything
     

  3. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    What’s the issue with Glock in 40 caliber and lights? I carried a G22.3 w/M3 light for five years and a G22.4 w/TLR-1 since 2013. The only times the light was off the G22.4 is for cleaning and when I got to do some cool UC work in a very bad place and wanted every round I could carry.
     
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  4. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    I can settle this.

    For $20,000,000.00 I will allow myself to be shot with a 9mm and a 40 in the same bullet. I suppose we can have a poll on what weights to use; heavy for caliber? There must also be an OR fully staffed, awaiting my arrival-from the parking lot. I get to choose the shooter.
     
  5. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    I’ve never claimed to know everything. But I do prefer scientific testing to “simple” testing.
    You must have me confused with someone else, this is the first time I’ve posted about how this type of “simple” testing isn’t useful. I’ve actually never had anyone try to show me the effectiveness of the .40 over the 9mm by posting videos of the 5.7 vs the meat target, a full-auto AR vs concrete blocks, and some guys opinion (that I’ve never heard of, but I have heard of the fbi, Federal, and Speer) about the fbi tests.
    Do you have any data, from companies or individuals that have some sort of track record, that shows the effectiveness of the .40 to be significantly better than the 9mm?
    Because, unlike some people who believe in magic bullets, I’m not a caliber fanboy. I’m always looking to learn, I’m all about giving myself every advantage I can to survive if I ever need to use my weapon in SD of myself or my family. I actually carry a G-27 daily, and am issued a S&W M&P in .40.
    But, I would be just as comfortable carrying a G-17 and a 26, loaded properly.
    How hard a bullet hits a steel plate has absolutely nothing to do with how effective it would be against a human being.
    I understand that putting more rounds on target faster is better than a bigger bullet in the magazine.
    Especially when there’s no significant difference between the service calibers.


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  6. Pandaz3

    Pandaz3

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    Simple is still scientific isn't it?
     
  7. LouisianaGunSlinger

    LouisianaGunSlinger

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    Gel tests conducted by publicly funded LE agencies (I've seen the results from FBI, SDPD, CHP, PPD, various others) aren't different. They are (and this is the key) repeatable results. This is because there is a very stringent formula and process by which actual FBI-spec ballistic ordnance gelatin is made and maintained. It is all calibrated to make sure the density is the same (within acceptable parameters to achieve repeatable results), and is chilled and remained chilled the entire time before the shots are fired. YouTube and internet gel tests are not properly conducted as per FBI guidelines. Most of them use some sort of synthetic or clear gel, which does not give the same results as properly formulated FBI-spec 10% ballistic ordnance gel blocks formulated with organic material (from swine) that is proven to have strong correlation with human tissue. These amateur testers simply don't have the facilities and resources to conduct gelatin testing that produces repeatable, verifiable results. "Clear gel", "synthetic gel", "meat targets", all of that is bunk and do not produce reliable results which data can be taken from. Properly conducted gel tests using certified and calibrated FBI-spec 10% Ballistic Ordnance Gelatin do produce said results. This testing has been the basis of defensive/duty projectile construction for over 2 decades now, and we have enough data from police shootings now to verify that "street results" closely mirror LE testing in gel (specifically the 4 layer denim test).

    No, it's not. Scientific requires a completely controlled environment and results that are repeated by other testers showing the exact same results. That's what's called "peer review". The more results are repeated when all variables are the controlled/the same, the more one can count on those results as being accurate. Other individuals on the internet approximating their own version of tests is not peer review. Personally, I only view tests conducted by LE agencies with the funding and resources to conduct proper testing as valid. The results are verifiable and repeatable, as shown by other agencies replicating the exact same test parameters.

    Internet/youtube gel/meat tests are to be taken as entertainment, nothing more, really.
     
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  8. LouisianaGunSlinger

    LouisianaGunSlinger

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  9. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    I appreciate your sacrifice for the cause. A few conditions though:

    1. You only get paid if you live.
    2. Separate shootings so we can evaluate the effectiveness of each.
    3. Shootings occur at self-defense distance of 3 yards.
    4. You need to recruit 29 buddies to sign up for the same deal so we have a statistically valid sample.
     
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  10. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Which would really prove nothing. Every shooting is diff. Even if you could provide identical targets & bullet placement to centimeter, the target mindset will always be diff. Why everything fails at some point from 22lr to 50bmg.
     
  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Only if it is valid.
     
  12. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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    So much discussion on this...

    the decision to use a more powerful cartridge is a decision made based on compromises. There is no doubt that 40 is more powerful than 9mm. There is no doubt that in the same Glock frame, 9mm pistols have more capacity. If power meant nothing, then why do we have 10mm, or 357mag, or 44mag commonly used in bear country? The bottom line is that power matters, just how much it matters depends on the situation.

    There is also no doubt that for some folks, a more powerful cartridge in a micro sized pistol creates unacceptable recoil.

    So make your choice, based on your needs and perceptions. There is no right answer for everyone. Just 1 right answer for you in any given situation.
     
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  13. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    I agree with most of what you said. I carry .40 cal’s most days but would be just as comfortable carrying a 9mm, loaded with premium SD ammo, in a reliable pistol.
    The .40, in most loadings, is more powerful that a 9mm; the degree is what’s in question. Does the amount it is more powerful matter; or are you just getting more recoil, and less capacity?
    I carry a G-29 when bow hunting in Colorado and Montana. Bears are built differently than humans.


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  14. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Yet there is doubt. The 180gr 40/ & 124gr+P/9 & 45 ball produce nearly the same ME. So where is all that power?? What you do get is more momentum, & recoil, but neither are really relevant to terminal ballistics. I agree though, carry what you want, just understand there really is no "power" differential.
     
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  15. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    $10M if I die.
    I was thinking one on each side, right after the other, back to back, which was worse?
    I was going to say ten feet, three yards is fine.
    1% finder’ fee.

    So, you’re saying I don’t need to setup a new trust?
     
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Just saying it wouldnt really prove anything. Guys have taken thru & thru with 50bmg & stayed in the fight for significant time. 12ga buck & slugs, 223, 308, all have failed at some point to immediatly end a fight. The 40 is a fine round but really if there is any diff vs a good 9mm +p load, its very marginal.
     
  17. bigsteve113

    bigsteve113

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    We have had multiple failures with our Gen 4 G22's and G23's with lights attached. Not all of them but many of them. Some always did, some didn't at first but later did, some haven't yet. We just grew tired of either the failures, or wondering when/if they would fail.

    It's pretty well documented if you google "glock .40's with WML failures", or something like that. The failures were almost all FTF around mid magazine.
     
  18. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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    165gr Speer GD
    484 ft lb
    1150 fps
    https://www.sgammo.com/product/40-c...er-gold-dot-165-grain-hollow-point-ammo-53970

    compare to +P 124 gr 9mm at 410 ft lb and 1220 fps
    40 cal beats that by close to 20% on energy (+P that is), and 25% on momentum.

    If we are talking standard pressure 124gr GD 9mm, 40cal has close to 50% more energy, and 1/3 more momentum.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  19. fredj338

    fredj338

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    But we are not talking std pressure 9. If you really think 70ft# of energy, about half that of a 22lr, is changing the outcome vs landing more accurate hits faster, well good luck with that. Momemtum isnt really a game changer unless bone is hit. Not to be discounted but not a game changer. BTW, that 165gr SGDHP @ 1150, as tested it's not even close to that, closer to 1100fps, so ft# of energy even less. In all fairness the 124gr +P wont reach 1200fps in most ccw either.
    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
    Both have about the same SD so penetration wil be sim. Its just not enough diff to switch to if it affects your accuracy at speed. The only true measure of your accuracy with a given platform. Your fight will not be a slow speed target match where you get all day to align the sights & press a shot. It will likely all be over in 3-5sec in hail of bullets. If you land more good hits than the BG, you probably win.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  20. George Kaplan

    George Kaplan emeritus

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    9mm owners rejoice. No more validating our caliber, the powers that be are doing it for us.

    The 9mm, surviving fads and putting an end to ridiculous hydrostatic shock and energy dump nonsense since 1902.
     
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