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The Eminence Front of The "Middle Class"

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Restless28, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    I don't doubt that your example is 100% true. I'm sure that you can point to a house, or houses, that "prove" your case.

    But your statement:

    is about averages, by definition. And like I said, this statement is demonstrably false when you look at California housing and incomes.

    It's not "my" graph. It's a graph that was created by Los Angeles County. Last time I checked, Los Angeles was in Southern California.

    Your issue is that you don't understand the difference between an anecdote and data. Yes, you have personal experience with a single data point. Yes, that can be emotionally powerful. But it doesn't--can't--tell the whole story, and the whole story is that on average, you are wrong. That's what the numbers say. No matter how much you want to believe differently, the numbers are what they are.
     
  2. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    The graph shows Sacramento which is not in Socal. No where close to Los Angeles.

    My example holds true for the entire coastal region of Southern California. It is not just one point or one house, which proves what I said, location matters.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013

  3. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    For San Diego, it's actually lower than the historical average and within ~7% of the value in 1977:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    Apparently, you can't read legends either.

    I've posted three graphics: one (the first one, that you're responding to here) is the overall California average. The second shows Sacramento, Milwaukee, and Madison. The third shows San Diego specifically.

    All tell the same story. You are wrong. Demonstrably, statistically wrong. No matter how much you want to believe it, what you think simply isn't true.

    That doesn't change the truth about the street you grew up on or whatever. I don't know why the prices have increased so much there. But on average, prices vs. income are right where they've been for most of recent history.
     
  5. SPIN2010

    SPIN2010 Searching ...

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    Because, in MA you got more greedy liberals per sq-in than the Oprah show. I know ... I fled.
     
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  6. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    For some reason only the one graph was showing when I was looking at the thread, but I do see the SD graph now, not the third though.

    Draw a line through the SD graph and it will have an overall upward long term trend showing an increase in the ratio of income vs housing prices.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  7. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    Here is Orange County. Proves what I am saying.

    Also shows the long term upward trend of the ratio housing to income.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    Nope. This is a different kind of graph entirely. It's a plot of OC home prices divided by US average home prices.

    What it says is that houses in OC are more expensive than the US average, not that they're more difficult to afford for the average OC resident.

    You can't pick-and-choose your data. If you want to look at OC prices, you need to look at OC incomes as well.
     
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  9. GAFinch

    GAFinch

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    Which is the Catch-22. All the good paying manufacturing jobs have moved to Mexico and then to China, which lowered average earnings, but also made products cheaper to buy. Decades of raiding Social Security and pension funds kept taxes lower than they should have been and also offset lower paying jobs.
     
  10. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    LOL. I picked up the wrong graph from a different article. Hang on. Having a bad day I guess. :rofl: but the SD graph does have a long term upward trend.
     
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  11. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    No, they haven't. The US manufactures more stuff now than it ever has, by absolutely any measure. Manufacturing jobs pay more, on average, now than they ever have.

    The difference is that many of those jobs require skills--robots have taken over the unskilled parts of those jobs. There aren't many "good paying" unskilled manufacturing jobs anymore, and frankly, that is what it is. The era of being able to get a "good paying" unskilled job in America was a historical accident, nothing more.
     
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  12. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    But what about the actual number of jobs in manufacturing?

    Output per person is way up so I would think less people work in manufacturing which is what everyone really means when they talk about manufacturing. It is down, ie less people (ratio of workers to population etc..) able to work in manufacturing etc...
     
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  13. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    Most of the graphs aren't up to date, aren't showing the recent down turn so I don't want to post them.

    But overall, a very slight, but increasing of the ratio of housing prices to income is what I am seeing. Not anywhere as severe as the markets I am familiar with. Plus the downturn in housing prices may not be over so who knows, it could flatten out some more.

    Something else that is interesting is a lot of the graphs I see where the ratio is about the same use household income. If more families are 2 income vs 1 income families then the actual "cost" to a family to afford a median home is much more.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  14. devildog2067

    devildog2067

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    As you suspect, it's down. Your reasoning is correct.

    So what?
     
  15. High Altitude

    High Altitude

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    Sew buttons.
     
  16. Rabbi

    Rabbi The Bombdiggity Lifetime Member

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    Devildog did a fine job with the details. For the hammer answer...there were expensive place back then as well...and you need to understand what an average is.

    We are also not talking abotu 15 years in this thread. You cant move the goal posts and then claim a point against the old standard.
     
  17. PaulMason

    PaulMason

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    Economically, middle class isn't a lifestyle.

    It is economics and the numbers associated with it.

    Go to Figure #6 - click on the title below to go to the site.

    [ame="http://www.slideshare.net/whitehouse/the-rise-and-consequences-of-inequality-in-the-united-states-charts"]The Rise and Consequences of Inequality in the United States: charts[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  18. TX OMFS

    TX OMFS Right wing nut Lifetime Member

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    The car still costs a lot of money. Your write-off doesn't equal the cost of the car. The car isn't free. This strategy is really just a way to feel clever about buying an expensive car. There's nothing wrong with an expensive car but let's not pretend we're saving or making money by buying one.
     
  19. DanaT

    DanaT Pharaoh

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    You are missing the point. It is possible to lower tax brackets (or even show a loss and no) tax with write offs. So, you can actually save much more than just the tax; you can actually lower tax brackets which can mean a LOT of tax savings.
     
  20. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    This is absolutely true.

    And from the other side of the table, money is money, but a dollar "saved" (ie, not sent to the taxman) for some people is good money.