The Devil's Equation

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by furetto7, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:48 AM.

  1. furetto7

    furetto7 Galloglaich

    Messages:
    337
    Likes Received:
    244
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Location:
    Far, Far Southwest Kansas
    Two and a half years ago I left a detective position with a 26 officer department in the Texas coastal bend area and returned to west Kansas at the request of the new sheriff. The department I work for now has a total of ten sworn including part-timers, I and one other officer are the only two who have ever worked anywhere else which occasionally leads to some differences of opinion.

    Last week we did a active shooter drill at the local middle school, things didn't go all that well as it was the first drill in over ten years and only the other experienced officer and I have had any training in active shooter response. It was no secret about the exercise and since I work nights I was told when and where it would happen and was told to be ready to respond from home, so as the appointed hour neared I was sitting in my running truck in my jump suit, drop leg holster and steel plate carrier with my rifle ready to go. I and the other trained officer both arrived to the party late and were the only ones dressed for the occasion, we were the only ones wearing plate and carrying rifles, the department issued steel plates and carriers to all of the deputies several years ago with the instructions that the plates were to be carried in the truck.

    The Under Sheriff and I got into a discussion about what to wear to an active shooter situation, he felt that the few seconds needed to put on his plates and grab is rifle was too long and that it was better to make rapid entry with just your sidearm to prevent the further potential loss of life. While I was in Texas we drilled on active shooter at the local schools a couple of times a year and we all kept our plates where we could grab them quickly, I can have mine on in less than 30 seconds from the time my truck stops rolling until I am ready to make entry. My plate carrier has both rifle and pistol magazines, a trauma kit and three tourniquets on it plus my radio headset so I can still hear both surroundings and my radio with gunfire in the enclosed space.

    With the understanding that both sides are part of the Devil's Equation about time versus proper equipment which side do you think is right?
     
  2. ranger1968

    ranger1968

    Messages:
    9,409
    Likes Received:
    15,001
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Location:
    Wayyyyyy down South, shootin' stuff and Jeeping!
    While seconds count, for sure, the very few seconds it takes to grab those vital items that are right there in the vehicle increase the chances of saving lives and ending the situation more quickly.

    On balance, you are correct, and other guy is being short sighted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019 at 7:09 AM

  3. happyguy

    happyguy Man, I'm Pretty

    Messages:
    28,248
    Likes Received:
    28,805
    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Location:
    You can't get here from there!
    I wouldn't ever second guess someone who took the time to grab their rifle.

    What good are you if you rush in and are shot to death before you can put a stop to things? How many more kids will die with you?

    I say armor up and run like hell!

    But I'll not second guess any of you guys who rush in.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
     
    larry_minn, professor kv and Rellik like this.
  4. pugman

    pugman

    Messages:
    7,132
    Likes Received:
    2,048
    Joined:
    May 16, 2003
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    There is a production tool called the unattainable triangle: good, fast and cheap (or as I like to call it quality, time and price). You can generally have two.

    This is a no win situation on the surface. You could show up minutes late with lost lives or come to a gun fight with a knife (figuratively).

    If it was me? I would train, train, train. Learn how to those put those carriers on in the dark, upside down one handed..which you probably do already.

    These situations always lead to second guessing afterwards.

    However, its a school. There are other options which can ADD seconds. Armed teachers, armed security on site
     
  5. ateamer

    ateamer NRA4EVR

    Messages:
    10,804
    Likes Received:
    5,626
    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2001
    Location:
    In the hallway - it's on cuz!
    He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. Ugh. It’s frustrating how many agencies don’t train and stay on the edge.

    If your department won’t provide training, pass along what you can and develop yourself as a peer leader and unofficial training officer. If the guys there are smart, they’ll ping on who knows what they’re talking about and who’s a pogue.
     
  6. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

    Messages:
    23,628
    Likes Received:
    5,602
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    I'm just a reserve, so I won't offer advice, but having said that, here's how I'd approach it.

    Do you know if he has a handgun or a long gun? Probably not with any certainty.

    If it's a handgun, the plates and rifle are nice to have, but not crucial. Time may be better spent entering and ending it sooner.

    If he has a rifle, you could really use the protection and extra range/accuracy a long gun affords you.

    That said, a lot of these guys also off themselves at the first sign of armed resistance also to avoid being captured. So a few pistol rounds downrange against a rifle is often all you need to end it.

    So I don't think you can say either side is "wrong". Which is better depends on the circumstances.

    Best solution may actually be a few guys in early with minimal equipment with more tactical stuff 30 sec behind.

    We generally have plates in the car, often an AR, but we don't train with them. Regulars do. I don't even know where the lock button is to release the AR.

    If I'm alone, and the plates are in passenger seat, I'm throwing them on as I head in, not worrying about the AR. If plates aren't right there, probably taking my chances without it.

    Most likely will be moot, we work football, basketball games at the school, we'll be far away from the car and the extra gear if we're involved. Going to be soft armor and a pistol. If we're doing traffic or house checks where car is handy, it'll be over by the time we get to the school anyway.

    Randy

    Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
     
  7. 1L26

    1L26

    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    7,248
    Joined:
    May 10, 2017
    Location:
    Living in exile in the Silver State!
    Really simple even for an Undersheriff. If the Deputy gets shot in the first seconds of being on the scene and is incapacitated he has now compounded the problem. It's like rolling too fast for conditions to a hot call. First you have to get there!
     
    Deltic, ranger1968, CAcop and 2 others like this.
  8. flyover

    flyover

    Messages:
    11,343
    Likes Received:
    29,437
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Location:
    Western Kansas
    I'm not a cop but I think it would be better to armor up and then go in. You never know what you are going up against.
     
  9. spork

    spork Caffeinator

    Messages:
    3,255
    Likes Received:
    5,630
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Location:
    Dystopia
    Rushing in less prepared than you could be would be more likely to add to the casualty count than to subtract from it. I second the motion to take the seconds needed to get carrier and rifle into action.
     
  10. collim1

    collim1 5ft of fury. The champ is back!

    Messages:
    11,979
    Likes Received:
    8,731
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Location:
    USA
    A minute is an eternity in that situation.

    I’ve heard a lot of guys claim to be able to gear up with long gun and plate carrier in 30 seconds. Few can actually do it when we’ve tested it.

    I’m all about grabbing whatever helps you fight. But you need to be able to exit the car fighting. That’s means driving up close to the school before exiting the car and being able to fight when your feet hit the ground.

    For me it’s a rifle in the rack up front with me and a spare 30rd mag I keep on my patrol bag in the front seat goes in my back pocket. And I’m gone.

    It’s really a no win situation. Every second is 2-4 rounds that can be fired. Every round in a crowded hallway can kill 1-4 kids.

    Taking a wrong turn inside the school or not having solid info as to where exactly the shooter adds to the body count as well.

    If we show up and stop the shooter ASAP we will be still be blamed for not preventing it.

    I am not issued hard body armor and don’t currently have any of my own. I had a carrier with large steel plates and they were cumbersome and slow to get on I sold them.

    I see his point beyond the typical admin weenie line of thought.

    The truth is the answer lies somewhere in the middle between get in without any delay and have the tools you need when you get in there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019 at 12:46 PM
    boyscoutG36 likes this.
  11. BradD

    BradD

    Messages:
    9,659
    Likes Received:
    4,131
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Location:
    KY
    I'm not a police officer, so I won't second guess anybody's decision. That said, 30 seconds is a LONG time. If this was a home invasion scenario (the closest comparison in my world), I don't think I'd spend another five seconds above what it'd take to grab the nearest weapon and engage. I don't think I'd take any extra time to get one of our ARs instead of our 9mm single-stack, for example.
     
  12. Gombey

    Gombey

    Messages:
    2,110
    Likes Received:
    763
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    Maybe a staggered response? First units on scene runs in w/what they have.

    Other units that respond after two or three officers are in the building next units grab long guns. Last to get on scene kit all the way up.

    Sadly my rifle rides in the truck. Active shooter response for me is as soon as it is physically possible I’m getting out of my car and going into the school looking for work.

    If I’m one of the units responding a little later I will run to the trunk and get my rifle.
     
  13. SAR

    SAR CLM

    Messages:
    3,031
    Likes Received:
    966
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Location:
    LA LA Land
    Your undersheriff is wrong. Back in 1997, two well armed gunmen held over 100 pistol equipped officers from my agency at bay until members of SWAT arrived with their long guns. Back then, we didn’t have a patrol rifle policy. We do now. In this day and age, active shooters are likely to be armed with an AR-15, and be wearing vests themselves. Don’t make the mistake our agency did. If the scenario played out today, rifles would be deployed for certain.
     
    Rezdawg, jimcorbin, CAcop and 3 others like this.
  14. pgg00

    pgg00

    Messages:
    15,674
    Likes Received:
    33,039
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Location:
    Fled the emerald triangle
    We carry long guns up front so we can deploy with them right out of the car. I had a spare rifle mag on my normal duty set up. I also have some new rifle plates that ride in my normal armor (angel armor and weigh about the same as my old K30 insert) so they are on the entire time. So if I'm first second or third I'm going with what i have and my rifle. Beyond that I'm gearing up and we start forming teams then (the way our training goes).
     
    Rezdawg, LilCop2002 and 1L26 like this.
  15. Lt. Donn

    Lt. Donn PSO Survivor. currently in NW Georgia

    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    14,808
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Location:
    NW Georgia
    The sad reality is this:...in every active shooter for the past few decades, the majority of the carnage was finished by the time the first officers arrived on-scene.
    There simply is too much "lag time" involved in calling 911, dispatching officers, and response to the scene...this is not to say we should not respond and be ready to make a dynamic entry as soon as possible, but let's not get crazy about a 30 second delay allowing for body armor to be put on...some situations cannot be prevented...mitigated yes, prevented no...action still beats reaction. Even the latest shooting in NJ ( I think?) where a patrol officer heard the initial shots and was right around the corner...engaged the shooter as he was heading into the night-club..."still" a couple shot prior to the officer stopping the threat...even if I am putting on armor as I am running toward the scene...I cannot help anyone if I get shot and taken out of the fight
     
  16. pgg00

    pgg00

    Messages:
    15,674
    Likes Received:
    33,039
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Location:
    Fled the emerald triangle
    A good point. Alot suck start their gun. One reason i advocate sirens when rolling in. If they hear it they may start sucking their gun before we even enter
     
    msu_grad_121, CAcop and 1L26 like this.
  17. Gombey

    Gombey

    Messages:
    2,110
    Likes Received:
    763
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    I want to attempt to get those high speed racks Mayhem showed off...first I need to get my change of body armour request approved first. Lol
     
  18. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Messages:
    56,987
    Likes Received:
    42,367
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Location:
    Kentucky
    You can't save anybody's life if you get killed.
     
    badge315, Dukeboy01 and 1L26 like this.
  19. JK-linux

    JK-linux

    Messages:
    5,128
    Likes Received:
    3,096
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Star State
    The folks that didn't bring their gear will say you wasted time bringing it; the folks who brought theirs will say you wasted others time by not bringing it. I was always told to start out by first making sure I did my best to not become a casualty/liability, and to make sure I had the right tools for the job, so for my position on the issue... gear up.
     
  20. ReaPer105

    ReaPer105

    Messages:
    3,665
    Likes Received:
    6,629
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Best practices say rifle and plates.
    In TX, ALERTT (probably the premier active shooter training anywhere), they are teaching stop on the way, armor up and get the rifle ready to roll instantly on arrival.
    I do not think I could live with myself if I were taking a minute to stop and armor up knowing another 10-15 people may be killed in that time frame.
    Tons of good arguments to put it on, and I've considered them all. But if it's truly an active ongoing shooter, I'm probably not taking the time to put the plate carrier on. That's me, if you choose to do otherwise you are not wrong...probably more right actually.
     
    pgg00 and happyguy like this.