Tenifer Finish

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by norton, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Nagoya10

    Nagoya10

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    I know and could care less what it's called. It is nothing but a high grade, expensive paint job and wears off way too easily for something advertised and named as "near Diamond Like Coating." While I take care of my Glocks and do not have (as yet) external wear or damage to the coating, internally it wears very rapidly to bare metal. Since it is advertised as hardness, wear resistance and slickness, the only one it achieves well is the slickness. Hardness and wear resistance is useless when it comes right off with impact such as what is seen inside a pistol's moving parts. While it MIGHT last a little longer on rubbing friction, it will wear through still too quickly. In the end, Glock has had much, much tougher, longer lasting and rust resistant finishes than what they now produce. The Gen5 nDLC finish, in my opinion, is nothing but a gimmick that sounds all Operator Tactical like but delivers little of it.
     
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  2. cciman

    cciman MacGyver

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    That is your biased opinion.

    Again the nDLC is just the surface black and surface dressing-- it has replaced the previous paints that Glock used to use. (Yes the so called "teflon finish" that many on this forum refer to, is just paint). The nDLC is closer to 'teflon" than has ever been used on Glocks.

    The underlying metal was treated before the nDLC surface layer was applied, so the hardness, lubricity, and rust resistance is the same as previous generations, and likely the same process and equivalent to the Tenifer brand they used to use in the distant past. Tenifer process still being done, it's just not the brand. Like pouring bleach in the toilet, still bleach, just not called Clorox.
     
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  3. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

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    No, it’s not the same. One is a “ salt water bath” and the other is “salt water gas/spray “. There is a difference in the process. It’s more than just a name or trademark name change. . Similar process but different.
     
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  4. cciman

    cciman MacGyver

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    Touche...but the end result on the surface of the metal is functionally the same: Nitrided.
    You will not be able to determine which was used without a lab, or proper side by side testing, let alone who (brand) performed it.

    BTW, both Nitriding and DLC coatings is used in many high tech tool and parts manufacturing.

    It is not idiot proof: drop it on concrete, or drag it across gravel, it will damage. The slide can be milled. Diamond coated saw blades do wear out, as do phonograph needles.
     
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  5. jonb32248

    jonb32248

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    Just an aside: I have a gen 2 slide F.O.P 1989, the finnish is dull and has some scrapes and wear especially when the end of the slide rubs on my jeans where it sticks thru the holster.Question, would you get it refinished or leave it original and how to treat the slide?
     
  6. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

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    It’s a personal choice. Glock did offer to re “dip” the slide for me many, many many years ago but it makes no difference to the metal itself. It’s cosmetic. The color is “painted”on after the tenifer process.

    The nicks and scratches gives my service Glock character. It has been through a lot and still runs like a top. Over 20 years of service although it did ride the bench ( in my locker) more than my Glock 26. But my G26 was in an IWB and not exposed to the abuses of a gun in an open carry security holster. You fall to the ground in a wrestling match to cuff a suspect, it takes abuse from hitting the ground. Or because it sticks out unlike when in an “ off duty” or non security OWB holster it bangs into walls, cars, the seat belt etc. The wear and tear of cop’s service weapon and it still functions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  7. 10or45

    10or45 NRA Benefactor Life Member

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    My early gen 3 Glocks have the tennifer nitrocarburizing treatment under the frying pan finish. I much prefer them over the later guns. Those surfaces are extremely hard. That frying pan finish holds up way better than my Gen 4 guns.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  8. Walter Bishop

    Walter Bishop

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    The story often repeated that Glock stopped using the Tenifer treatment because it was banned by the EPA is total baloney. As noted, numerous gun companies still Tenifer their slides. Glock switched from Tenifer to a generic nitride treatment so they wouldn't have to pay royalties to HEF Durferrit. Glock then switched to nDLC to save a few more pennies.
     
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  9. cciman

    cciman MacGyver

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    Traditionally, the best way to keep the gun from showing signs of use is to keep it in the safe.

    Think about it...are you keeping it pretty for the next guy?

    Use it like you own it, like the hammer and hedge clippers. It costs less than your cell phone.
     
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  10. BBMW

    BBMW

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    Tennifer, melonite, and others are salt bath nitrocarborizing. Glock used to use this as a metal treatment. At some point they moved to a gaseous nitrocarborizing. Some say the former is better than the latter. I'm not a metallurgist, so I don't know.

    Both of these are done before the cosmetic finish is applied.
     
  11. ShipWreck

    ShipWreck Beretta 92 Nut!

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    I used to not be that way... I got teased about my "museum pieces" in my 20s and 30s.

    I'm almost 50 now. This is how I feel. If I don't at least occasionally carry it, I usually do not keep the pistol...
     
  12. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    Agreed on all fronts. By "inferior", I simply mean that Hef states immersion is better than gaseous (see quote below). This "inferior" treatment is still FAR superior to untreated, and in most cases will perform the very same in the real world for most owners, with rare exceptions.

    To by crystal clear, I feel the gaseous is adequate (I am not afraid of it failing... it is fine). While I do believe the manufacturer when they state one is clearly better, I don't by any stretch of the imagination take that to mean one is woefully inadequate. It is not. And they sell both because both are viable options. As you note, for most cases, it is highly unlikely that one would be able to tell a real-world performance difference. Long-term corrosion tests, or other lab poking and prodding could tease the two treatments apart, but most gun owners will not be impacted at all.


    Having said that, one of the challenges of gas nitrocarburizing (for gears, pistons, camshafts, and other parts) is the fact that uniformity is inferior for gas vs immersion. Positions within ovens, substances on the metal surface, and other factors do create added complications. If a spot on a barrel or slide were to have variability in the depth of penetration of the metal treatment, that could manifest itself with wear or corrosion under certain circumstances. This is true for all nitrocarburized parts, but liquid is more uniform and provides better consistency. See below for proof statement that this is true (from the Tenifer/Melonite owner, who offers both liquid and gas-based products).

    What is "good enough"? For just about everyone, a gas nitrocarburized Glock is certainly "good enough". Perhaps a team of Navy Seal's training in salt water for three months may benefit from added protection, but for most of us it is fine (and indistinguishable). But that doesn't mean that it is "as good", which is my only point.

    A better Glock metal treatment option existed previously (Tenifer, with immersion), but a slightly more economical one has been chosen. And it works. This would fall under your "imperceivable" category (with very few, rare exceptions when an under-nitrocarburized area may oxidize... a rare event to be sure, but one that was previously virtually unheard of).

    If Glock were simply using Melonite, I think they would have noted it. Given reports by others stating it is gas nitrocarburizing, that is my assumption. I cannot prove that is accurate, other than to say a phone attendant did say it was when I asked (but calling a firearm company and taking what you are told as hard fact isn't always right... better than gun store rumors, but marginally so!). But since they verbally stated it, I am going with it.

    In the end, if I were selecting a part for a Navy Seal, a Nascar/IndyCar/F1 car, an offshore oil rig submerged gear, or for a high wear part, I would choose immersion nitrocarburizing over gaseous. For guns, Tenifer was great. And it would be nice today. But other hardening approaches will meet the basic need.


    From Hef Derferrit: https://www.hefusa.net/salt_bath_nitriding_liquid_nitriding/liquid-nitriding-faq.html
    1. How is Liquid Nitriding different from other Nitriding processes?

      Nitriding, or, nitrocarburizing, can be accomplished using four different media: 1) Liquid; 2) Gas; 3) Plasma; and 4) Fluidized Bed. All methods are intended to accomplish similar - though not identical – results. However, liquid is considered the benchmark for uniformity, consistency, and flexibility. Liquid Nitriding also provides the best combination of wear and corrosion protection and the shortest processing times.

     
  13. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    I cannot prove this. I have seen it stated, and on a phone call with Glock, I was able to get them to confirm it was gaseous, but (as noted above) firearm phone banks are often just a step above gun store rumors in accuracy. The reason I state it is that their phone staff said it was true. I don't know if that make it true, but I am choosing to take them at their word, since it seems to fit what we see. I just sent another email to them asking, and if they reply to the contrary (which they have never chosen to reply at all and answer...) I will post it right away.

    Anecdotally, I have some photos that also support this theory. I will have to search my links to post that info in a subsequent post.

    Given that firearm companies that use a premium process tend to boast (Melonite/Tenifer, proprietary HE, etc.), the fact Glock is not making claims suggests they are not using these products. And given the reports of rust on some guns, after DECADES of people saying Glock's simply cannot rust (and long-term forum members will recall the disbelief at ANY hint of rust on a Glock!), it seems to suggest something has changed. But I cannot prove to you or anyone it is absolutely gas-based, and despite a verbal comment stating it was, I cannot even prove that. Sorry! You are on-target and justified to ask for a source, and I wish I had one to offer. :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  14. IndyExit

    IndyExit

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    Tennifer is the metal treatment and color is applied over it. Nitride is use by many manufactures. People don't know what it is.
     
  15. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    Anecdotally, I can add the following observation. Years ago, I worked in an aluminum plant (different metal, and we didn't do this process at all since it isn't for aluminum, but our metallurgy group did do developmental work on steel, so I saw these in the plant). So I did recognize an industrial oven when looking at a photo tour of the Glock plant a while back. And I googled a few names of ovens I could recall from my head, and one of the images was a match.

    The oven in question (retort/muffle furnace) can be used for many things, but
    1.) immersion carbonitriding is NOT one of them, and
    2.) gas carbonitriding absolutely IS an application that can be easily done in this particular unit!

    Perhaps they are just wasting money for super-snazzy, fancy annealing furnaces with features they don't need (and paid a LOT of extra money for the ability to pull a vacuum to evacuate, add, and control gasses), but it looks very much like they could be doing gas nitriding. Someone who does or knows this field can chime in and let me know if this is wrong, but... annealing furnaces for simple metallurgy can be done far more cheaply than these units, which enable gas and environmental control features a basic annealing furnace does not.

    Photo from the Glock factory tour (via Glock's published photo factory tour, Source: http://www.majorpandemic.com/2016/11/glock-factory-tour-glock-perfection-or-paranoia.html)

    The furnaces at Glock:
    [​IMG]


    Photo from IVA, and their Horizontal Retort Furnaces ("The IVANIT process gassing device is used for nitriding, nitrocarburizing and posterior oxidating.", Source: https://www.iva-online.com/en/products/horizontal-retort-furnaces.html).
    Photo of their furnace (that CAN be used for gas nitriding) from the IVA web site:
    [​IMG]



    I think we can absolutely agree they have this gas retort furnace at Glock (photos don't lie!). Whether they also have immersion-based baths is unknown, but they certainly have nice retort furnaces that can do gas nitriding in Smyrna!


    If anyone else has input or detective work, feel free to chime in!
     
  16. cciman

    cciman MacGyver

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    You are still resting your bias on "branding". A cheaper generic process can be done just as well as a "branded" process--- if not adequately then for 99% of usage.

    You have no evidence, outside of bias, assumption, and conjecture, that the current process is "inferior" to the previous.
     
  17. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    If they are using a generic (or other "branded" form) of immersion/liquid nitrocarburizing, that is true. I am guessing they are NOT doing liquid immersion. If that is correct (potentially supported by rumors, my personal call with Glock, and my photo guesswork), I do fall back to Hef Durferrit's assertion (and other published articles) stating that liquid immersion baths are the gold standard. So if Glock is now doing gaseous treatment (speculation warning!) there is lots of documentation (scientific, and from vendors like Hef) that openly state that immersion nitrocarburizing is better than gaseous.

    I openly admit that I cannot prove/disprove what Glock is doing (and they don't say, in a documented fashion), but if you note in an earlier post I pointed out that they invested a lot of money in fancy ovens that are widely used for gaseous nitrocarburizing... which supports the verbal comment from Glock that they did, indeed, switch to gaseous treatments (and away from immersion, whether Tenifer, Melonite, or some generic or alternative brand of liquid nitrocarburizing).

    I don't believe they switched from Tenifer/Melonite to a different liquid equivalent. But I readily admit that I cannot prove that (Glock doesn't tend to share). But it is what I believe, and given the fact that I DO recognize an oven that is widely used for gas nitriding applications from the Glock Smyrna plant photos, that is my humble guess. I am happy to be proven wrong.

    I have earlier Glock guns (Tenifer timeframe) and newer Glock guns (Smyrna), and none are rusting. No issues, no worries. And I don't anticipate any of them rusting. I sleep well at night. If I were given the option of choosing, I would absolutely choose immersion nitrocarburizing. If I can't choose, I can happily live with gaseous application. Both will work. But they are not copmletely equal.


    In the photos of the Glock plant I don't see liquid baths. You and others are free to visually look over the Glock plant photos and see what you can see. That does not mean they are not there (Glock may not have allowed those photos to be shown!). But they were not photographed (and the gas-capable nitriding machines WERE photographed!). From Hef Durferrit's site, an automated salt bath looks like this:
    upload_2020-10-19_15-11-55.png

    Simply put, I see ovens used for gaseous nitriding, but don't see liquid baths in the Glock photos. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but it offers anecdotal evidence beyond anything else I have seen offered in forums. And we may never know. It is pure speculation.

    I'd like to think I provided some supporting evidence (photos of the furnaces) based upon my younger days in a metallurgy lab doing quality control testing and seeing some of these things while collecting samples throughout the factory, but it is admittedly well out of my scope of expertise! I just ran the tests and walked past the machines and furnaces in the plant! And the only photos I have of Glock are from the public sites we can all view and analyze. I have never personally seen the plant, and don't know anyone who has information to share on the topic. I did see some things I know in the public photos, and that retort furnace was one of them.

    No more, no less.

    :cheers:
     
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  18. Made in Austria

    Made in Austria

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    Glock stated in an german article over in Austria shortly before the gen4 guns arrived that they changed their metal hardening treatment from a cyanide bath to a gaseous nitriding method because the cyanide is too much of a hassle to deal with and that the process takes too long to meet the high demand of their firearms. I looked everywhere for that article but I can't find it.

    If the nitriding process is done correctly and the steel wasn't visibly oxidized before the treatment, it doesn't matter which method is used to diffuse nitrogen into the steels surface.
     
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  19. fuzzy03cls

    fuzzy03cls

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    What about the many threads with pics & proof that the new Glocks wear like crap, & rust.
    And those of us that own Glocks form the early /mid 2000's before the switch that look brand new with triple the rd counts & use of new Glocks after the change that look like they have been to war & back.
    Glock cheaped out to save $. Simple as that.
     
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  20. boilergonzo

    boilergonzo

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    Okay... Thanks! Your post got me thinking...

    ...so I used Google Translate to put words like "gas immersion Glock Tenifer nitrocarburizing", etc. into German, and then to plug those newly found German words into a quick Google Search. Using words to search for like "gasnitriert" and "oberflächenkorrosion" I searched for (and found!) an article that may be the one you mentioned. If only I spoke German, this would be simpler!

    One of the articles I found written in German that specifically stated Glock shifted at least some of its hardening from Tenifer to a gas-based hardening process (others just said "more environmentally friendly", or "faster", or "easier" processes that also hardened the metal). I had to plug the articles into Google Translate to read it, but here is what I have:


    Die Läufe der Glock-Generation 4 werden jetzt gasnitriert. Durch dieses Oberflächenhärteverfahren wird die Verschleißfestigkeit erhöht, und die Läufe sind weniger anfällig gegen Korrosion.

    Courtesy of Google Translate: "The barrels of the Glock generation 4 are now gas nitrided. This surface hardening process increases wear resistance and the barrels are less susceptible to corrosion."

    Source: https://djz.de/ausruestung-waffen-glock-17-2023/



    We do know the prior slides and barrels were previously both Tenifer treated (numerous sources). Now we learn Glock is using a gas process, in a published article.

    To sum up:
    • Glock told me by phone they are using gas hardening processes now.
    • We have photos of the Smyrna Glock site with IVA-Schmetz retort furnaces known to be used for gas hardening (see my posts and the Glock factory and IVA photos above).
    • We now have German documents (gun magazine level, not a public forum) that specifically states Glock shifted to gas nitriding processes.

    Whether people view it is good, bad or neutral, the simple fact is that Glock appears to have stopped immersion carbonitriding, and is now using a gas-based hardening protocol.

    While this is certainly an adequate approach, some will still prefer the old Tenifer (reality, nostalgia, brand loyalty, mythology, or whatever facts or emotions drive this).



    Everyone can draw their own conclusions, but mine remains that the current process is fine. I have already accepted it on my new Glock's. But if given the choice I would prefer immersion because I have read from many reliable industrial and academic sources that immersion is more uniform than gas and provides better corrosion and wear resistance. Until I see credible reports that refute that conclusion, I will continue to assume the multitude of articles stating such are accurate.

    Until that time, Glock is making good guns. They are responding to cost pressures and gave us "good enough". And that is simply the way companies are run. For profit.
     
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