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Talking To A Cop Today @ CCW...........

  1. I was registering an exhibit for the Ravalli County Fair today and one of the Montana Highway Patrol asked me an interesting question about how I felt CCW v OC was a deterrent to crime and threats to life.

    He followed up with a rhetorical situation:

    "Your in line at a bank and some bad guys come in with the intent to rob the place and they are waving handguns and a shotgun around as a threat".

    Then he asked me: "Do you think the Open Carry person is going to be as safe as the CCW because the bad guys can see he's armed and they take him out as a potential threat"?

    I really didn't have an answer so I'm asking here:

    If the bad guy(s) see that you are armed, does that make you an instant target in a situation like above?

    Me? I'm still thinking about if.

    FWIW: I have a CCW that I only 'technically' use when I am walking/hiking inside cities limits from fishing spot to fishing spot.

    Remember that I own my Glock 20 for bear defense --- and NO! I don't want to open the "Bear" question here .... or again. This is about CCW and OC.
  2. I would carry concealed even if I was allowed to open-carry.

    Why advertise?

    Why put a target on your back?
  3. I understand you.

    Montana allows ANYONE to CCW outside of city limits or outside of mining camps (I dunnow either- I'm baffled by that one!)

    So the issue of CCW becomes moot outside of those boundaries.

    Whereas, OC is legal by anyone anywhere outside of governmental reservations and VA facilities, post offices, etc., so it's not an issue here in Montana either.

    CCW in a car without a CCW permit is legal anywhere....city or county... for anyone, citizen of Montana or not.

    I got stopped once and the city cop asked me if I was carrying and if so to not show it to him. He just wanted to meet-n-greet me. No ticket nor ticketable offense.
  4. +1
  5. Maybe yes, maybe no. Only one way to find out...

    With that said, I and my wife have concealed carry since the mid 80s. Three different states now, EDC, from sunup to sundown. Its a part of life. Carried before I was a LEO and now after. I don't open carry. I did open carry while in uniform as a full time LEO Patrol Officer, but even when I worked plain clothes - it was concealed.
  6. I don't open carry... The CCW concept allows you the option to choose between being a typical harmless bystander or being a very obvious threat to the criminals.... I'll take option #1...
  7. OC say Look At Me on every level. I don't need the attention. Especially not in a bank being robbed.
  8. Professor KV gave the best answer. I always taught my CHL folks to "fly under the radar" whenever possible...the extra few seconds you save during a SD situation by being concealed, May just save your life....I see no good reason for OC.
    However, I have and do OC on occasion...but only when hiking in remote mountains near my home...Never in a any public place.
  9. It seems to me Open Carry would be more of a burden than Concealed. Don't jump on me about 2nd Amendment rights or the seriousness of carrying a firearm. I carry a gun to protect myself, not to be the center of attention to everybody in town that notices I am carrying. Don't you want to go about your daily business without being noticed by everyone with one good eye that you have a gun on your belt? You get everything from, Why do you need that Thing! To, Hey! Cool gun! What caliber is that? I don't want people to notice me because I protect myself with a gun.
    Very wordy, but isn't life easier without a lot of attention?
  10. NC allows open carry But in the 20 years we have lived here I have yet to see anyone OC except at some odd ball demonstration in Asheville by some OC nut jobs some years back .

    Now is OC Is it a deterrent ? Beats me but I'm sure a OC'er is more likely to have people call 911 or scream- Man With A Gun !! I more afraid of a under experienced LE shooting at ME than deciding if a BG need to be confronted or dispatched . I have conceal carried for 32 years behind me and only two occasions of concern but I did not need to clear my holster so for my OC is something I would only do while HUNTING .
  11. Never talk to a cop.
  12. What's strange is that there are a lot of OCs in Montana . I see them daily. A few are scary looking, others not so much so.

    Like I said, if one does not have a CCW permit in Montana, then OC is the only option.... this inside city limits or mining camps (and again, I do not understand the latter counterendorsement).

    I suspect that by computing on my fingers and toes that the CCWs outnumber the OCs by .... uhm.... maybe 30-to-1 in any given crowd here, so all basses seem to be covered.

    Have no fear, Montana is well armed, secretly or not.

    EDIT: .... and nobody runs screaming about a gun in view! It's a lifestyle here and there's no shock-n-awe about it...... except for some of the foreign tourists and people from California.

    Most tourists though, seem to handle it well.

    Californians seem more awed by the ability to purchase a can of spray paint without needing to call the store manager to unlock the display cabinet.
  13. In any situation where someone is committed to a violent act, yes, shooting any potential threat to them is a valid idea. Why I am not a fan of OC in general urban areas. It can certainly deter the petty thug but the committed maniac, uh no. You just get hammered first.
  14. I'm glad Texas passed open carry for licensed carriers just because I don't need to get overly paranoid about printing. I have seen two people carrying open that I can recall. The first was a little, but heavy, fellow in Home Depot. I walked past him (my normal gate) and he gave me a look out of the side of his eye. To which I thought - you better be more aware of who is coming up behind you than that when carrying a .45 in a OWB pancake, friction fit holster. A 12 year-old could have snatched that off of him. I don't know of any LEO's that would be crazy enough not to open carry with a bright badge on unless the holster has a retention system designed to defeat such an easy grab. That said, I do open carry sometimes on my land in the country, but aint' nobody "snekin" up on me there.
  15. This ^ exactly...OC might change a few "would be robbers" minds, but I wouldn't count on it..a deep thought process is not usually their strong point...
  16. My feelings, also. I like the fact no one knows I am armed. 1) No target on my back; 2) element of surprise; 3) no "do something! You've got a gun!" by some person who sees my OC weapon. I just don't like to advertise.
  17. More banks are robbed with notes than with guns

    I started out as a strong advocate for open carry and I still absolutely support the Citizen's right to make their own decision in the matter. It should be the Citizen's choice not the State's.

    Having said that, I have not open carried off the clock in probably 10 years and I would probably go without a gun before I open carry now.

    In my experience open carry is only a deterrent in the sense that locks keep honest people honest. If somebody really wants to attack you that gun isn't going to stop them.

    Now it's my turn to make an Appeal to Authority. While open carrying, in uniform I've had one person threaten to knock me on my ass and take my gun. I've had one person DARE me to shoot him. I had two people try to rob me. (although in that particular case it was dark and they may not have realized I had a gun until it came out.) And I had one guy try to back me into a corner and snatch my gun in a Kum & Go at about 3AM one night.

    So those experiences inform my opinion. I think open carry is a bad tactical idea. I personally wouldn't open carry (at all if the choice was mine) without a level 2 retention holster AT A MINIMUM and probably intermediate weaponry such as OC spray or an ASP.

    I also think that as more people choose to open carry you're going to see more gun grabs and more attempted gun grabs ESPECIALLY if some of these idiot open carriers persist in walking around with unloaded weapons in these cheap ass $5 Uncle Mike's holsters with ZERO retention.

    Having said all that I would not restrict anyone's right to make that decision for themselves and when I see somebody open carrying in public I ignore it and hope they do me the same courtesy.
  18. The longer you talk to the police the more likely you are to say something they can use against you. When you do they will.
  19. Especially the ones that don't wear hats.
  20. The real question then is ... will the bears target you for OC?

    I think they will. OC, and pic-a-nic baskets.
  21. Does this also apply to police?
  22. Why do people ask such ridiculous questions when OC is presented??? LEO are wearing a uniform that pretty much tells everyone what is what. The casual thug is deterred the determined killer is not likely. Plenty of cases where armed LEO are shot every year by ambush.
  23. Yep! Even if a cop just says hi, I ask if I'm being detained or am I free to go.
  24. For the reasons given above (and over and over in other threads), I thinks OC is all risk with virtually no upside. Only time I think the risk is reduced is if you’re in a group of others also OC’ing. Not very helpful for most people’s day to day.
  25. Don't Fed laws prohibit bank carry anyway?
  26. Not that I'm aware of. Please cite those laws if you know of any. Banks are not federal property.
  27. You know how sometimes you'll walk by or into a store/bank/whatever and it just happens the local armored car company is making a delivery or a pickup?

    I cross the street or avoid that scene simply because if there's going to be a robbery, the robbers are going to point their guns at the guards and be ready to shoot them. I avoid OCers for the same reason.
  28. Probably the biggest CCW myth in existence.
  29. Yup.
  30. The Gray man.
  31. JFC!!!

    This crap again...

    I am standing in line at a bank. The bank I used to go to door is to the left of line, I’m right handed. Robbers bust in and wave their gats around, my carry side is blind to them...

    Or maybe I’m open carrying an M4 which would be obvious that I’m armed, except I’m sitting in one of the bank offices doing a mortgage and the robbers w/ their steel waving trying to regulate can’t see me in the office and I rock out w/ full auto

    Please... stop the charade of “you’re a target” like I’m wearing an orange bicycle triangle while I’m walking around... the arguments against really are pretty hollow...anyways...
  32. A few years ago in St. Louis County a guy shot up a council meeting. The first person he shot was the uniformed cop. I carry concealed.
  33. Even though legally I can, I would never open carry any firearm. The first time I actually saw it was at the NRA convention in Dallas this year. A couple of wannabes were walking around like a couple of tick turds. My wife asked me if that was legal. Unfortunately I had to tell her it was. Why draw attention to yourself? If anything else I want to be the gray man.
  34. Both of these, x10.

    Why put yourself on top of the target list?
  35. Now really,I OC in asheville daily.I can cc at my job because it's p/p.I work in 28806,own a home in 28748 and can cc there p/p.I don't/won't go anywhere with 2a violations.

    Granted 2a rts are by the cotus/states rts.Uncle sugar has usurped those thru highway "funds"or the "threat" of you don't drop dui to .008,you lost them.'08.
  36. As a active-duty LEO, it has been my experience this is a mostly true statement. The less-informed (uneducated if you will) doesn't seem to know how to answer questions or when to shut their mouth. This causes me more paperwork and more time spent in the D.A's office...neither of which I enjoy. On the other hand, a constitutionally legal stop opens the tight-lipped to a charge of obstruction which is very easy to prosecute in my area.
  37. It would seem in the opening scenario that if the miscreants were trying to avoid violence and the potential increase of penalties then they would make it a point to disarm all those with OC at the outset. Howver if dealing with a group that havent any scruples then they might be inclined to immediately shoot anyone open carrying. So by this analysis, OC would be more of a liability unless everyone in the place was OC. Then it could be like one of the Glock TV adds with a crescendo of metal clearing kydex or leather and/or cocking of SAA types.

    So overall CC seems the best option with the potential to join the fight without being ID'd at the onset.
  38. linuxlover So in your town that's the size of ours in an area and in a state that does not have a CC vs OC ratio your 30-1 ?? Interesting how you come up with those stat's ! . Any how, you don't live in an area full of vacationers or even worse liberal deomcraps to pitch a fit so what you do in mountana has little to do with WNC . Don't care what happens in comifornia ether but you seem to .


    kirhi08 Wow you mean in 20 years I have not bumped in to you some where while OC and how many others OC have you seen ?? . Anyhow I only expressed my opinion as that is what this tread was about right ??

    Then you say you can CC at home? Why only at home ? Guess you don't have a CHP then so CC off your property is something you can not do . maybe . Anyhow it really does not matter specially after you start dragging in something about drinking and .08 lost . What ever , sounds like your dealing with your own pile of issues . I could care less .
  39. This, but in rural settings I would be more open to, um, open carry.
  40. Open carry is just as necessary as concealed carry IMO and should be the person's choice if they "want a target" on their back or not - For me, outside of the home on your property, maybe if I'm in a more rural area, etc - do I need to OC in downtown Asheville? LOL no (you guys from west NC know what I mean)

    Thankfully we "have it" in NC (and I hate to talk about it like its a privilege but unfortunately with all the different state laws its treated like it), I've seen people in Walmart etc open carrying by me, and it makes me happy to see them exercising their right and volunteering to be the first line of response if SHTF -

    In Florida and other states where open is not allowed, and its 110 degrees in the summer and you're wearing light shirt and shorts, do I really have to be that paranoid that if I'm reaching up on a shelf in Home Depot and my shirt catches the holster for a split second that I might be getting in trouble? Or that I need to throw more clothing on in order to avoid it?

    Or in our state (NC) for example, your OC or CCW is determined while you're in the ****ING CAR as well, so if you don't have a conceal carry permit you have to have it in plain sight at all times otherwise you'd be in trouble -

    There needs to be both, IMO, or it just annoys me. I don't get worked up about printing (besides LEO's and other concealed carriers no one in their right mind would know the difference between a gun printing and a cell phone case with one of those big Samsung phones on a guys belt), if it occasionally happens when I'm wearing a T-shirt, so be it. I'm not going to be the guy who's wearing a T-shirt and an open, oversized button-down in the middle of August just because I'm paranoid about printing - that looks more odd to me than anything, I can spot those guys a mile away.
  41. Uh yeah. So what huge target is on every LEO back? Uniform & a gun. kinda why when under cover they dont wear their badge & gun openly.
    If I was going to rob the local pharmacy, you are in line, oc, you get shot in the back of the head cuz I am not waving my gun around. If you cant see the logic in it, I dont know what else to say.
  42. If I'm in the bank, OC, I'm gonna jump on the back of the nearest guard and scream "I got him, I got him"
  43. In most states, even krappyfornia, accidental gun exposure is not a violation of the law, just sloppy ccw. Even printing is not necessarily breaking the rules governing ccw, just again sloppy technique.
  44. Criminals get Tunnel Vision too
  45. I have open carried of and on for over 20 years here in NC.
    I see it done just about daily in Raleigh.
    Never heard of anyone being shot in a bank robbery or anywhere else for OC'ng.
    It depends on what I do that determines how I'm carrying.
    But I like seeing people doing it for the simple reason of reminding me and others that a armed society is a polite society.
  46. I have no freaking idea what I just (attempted to) read. :crazy:
  47. Drugs are bad, mmmkay
  48. Ill put it in a nut shell for you.. IF the bad guy becomes aware of the OC citizen prior to any overt action occurring and IF the badguy has reasonable command of common sense, I think OC stands a pretty good chance at being a deterrent. BUT !

    IF the badguy becomes aware of the OC citizen [a f t e r] overt action has occurred, his options are likely limited to FIGHT, FLEE or SURRENDER. I will place my bet on a violent predatory criminal responding violently toward a perceived threat in this circumstance.

    The Wildcard: IF the badguy is suffering from addiction, mental illness, gang influence, evil indifference or some other highly charged emotion/ perceived dire circumstance.. I consider conflict even more likely.

    HERE's the KICKER: How do you know which circumstance is more likely? Well, you don't and that is where common sense strategics come in. If I cannot know when the badguy is going to become aware of an OC firearm ( if at all), then I will err on the side of caution and choose the best tactic.. the one that will likely afford me the MOST options in the face of danger. That tactic is called concealed carry. Concealed carry does not highlight me as the most dangerous person in the room, it doesn't put me on the radar, It will likely afford me MORE of an opportunity to choose when, where and if to respond with my firearm. If a person wants to believe that a gun is a talisman, they can... but I wont.

    There are very good reasons why most LEOs do not OC off duty, why most experts in protective services, self defense training and other armed technicians do not OC when not on duty, why most citizen carriers in OC States still do not OC. Its called tactics and strategics.

    I live in a OC State and although OC is rather rare, I have had the occasion to talk with a several over the decades. Proponents of OC generally tout all the same mantras.. "its my right", "you lose a right if you don't use a right", "I want to represent this cause or that cause", "I want to condition others to seeing armed people in public", "badguys will surely flee when they see me". Its always the same old stuff and when they ask me why I don't OC, I tell them because I want to win the fight. They always look perplexed.
  49. Too funny