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Tactical reload versus speed reload

  1. In real life combat situations, which would you prefer? tactical reload? or speed reload? forget about paper targets or steel poppers that dont shoot back, and you need cover as badly as a good sight picture in a situation where you're indeed under fire, which type of reload would you rather do?
     
  2. tactical. sayang mags ngayon mahal na. ok lang speed reload basta after the gunfight kunin ko mags at baril ng kalaban :supergrin:
     
  3. Of course the 'Tactical Reload' just has to be better. After all it's got the word TACTICAL in it's name!

    I just got in a case of 'Tactical Toilet Paper.' Once it arrived I realized it was nothing more than a repackaging of the old 'John Wayne Toilet Paper.'

    You know, the stuff thats 'Rough and Tough and don't take **** off Nobody!'


    Bottom line, if it says 'Tactical' it HAS to be better!!!


    [​IMG]
     
  4. If it is between life and death situation, and spare ammo is not an issue..then nothing beats the speed reload..:thumbsup:
     
  5. i agree. speed reload is still the move you can depend on in times of extreme stressful situations.
     
  6. Ditto! Move while doing speed reload.
     
  7. I remember I joined a competition back in the Philippines(well, several of them) designed by Joe Lopez-Vito, a student of Col. Jeff Cooper. The course was made to teach us how to save our mags. We were only limited to 4 single-stack mags, which, according to him is the average no. of mags one carries concealed in a 1911. He told us that we could either do speed or tactical reloads.

    Those who dumped their mags either weren't able to finish the course or had to backtrack and retrieve their dropped mags just to finish the course.

    He didn't specify the no. of rounds to be used in the course. He is famous for creating surprise COFs. His rationale (and I've always believed in it)is that in the real world, you don't know what to expect.
     
  8. Anyone knw a gunfight where reloads saved the day?
     
  9. yes
     
  10. why
     
  11. Here is how I was trained every other month for the last 11 years:

    Tactical reload is used when there is a momentary lull (I know redundant)during an engagement. This is where we re-assess, recover or regroup.

    Speed reload is just that, reload now when you know your pipe is empty. Otherwise, tac reload, keep your mag but maintain contact with suspect, assess and re-engage if you have to.

    This training is used during shotgun qual months as well.

    Hope my reply helps.
     
  12. i must admit, that article makes some very good arguments against the tac reload.

    i'm re-thinking my stand, actually.

    maybe a speed reload, then retrieve the partially-loaded mag from the ground if you need to. the writer suggests the same at the end part of the article.

    has IDPA paid any attention to this?
     
  13. in my understanding TACTICAL reloads are suppose to be done under cover (where u have time on ur side and u can assess ur surrounding for incoming hostiles) it is suppose to give u the advantage of a fully charged weapon and at the same time keeping the partially used mag if ever u need more ammo.

    i dont think any1 would even attempt a speed reload if his weapon still has ammos and he's under fire without cover :)
     
  14. IMHO, i need to practice both. changing magazines in real life scenario would be on case to case basis. you might be needing to tactically change your magazine if you have the opportunity to do so and you have limited ammos, yet in different scenario where time is the essence speed load is a must. so on both styles there's no pros and cons. wala kang tulak kabigin...
     
  15. Doing a tactical reload with a Glock 21 is a killer. You are likely to drop the mags, injure your fingers when they get caught between mags and magwells, fumble with them or fail to lock the mag in the magwell. With the G19, tactical relaods are manageable. In a gunfight however, I'll most probably be doing speed reloads.

    If I have somebody else covering me, I could probably do tactical reloads, but if I'm all alone, I'll do speed reloads and try to run away as fast as possible from the gunfight zone.
     
  16. agree on all counts.

    if an assailant is on the move, running towards you with a big shiny knife or a rusty pipe, that is the worst time to do a tac reload.

    like saki and jerrytrini said, practice both and know when to apply them.
     
  17. In a civilian setting , could it be the only reason you have to reload is because you were missing---a lot
     
  18. in real threat scenario almost all targets/perpetrators are moving, naturally people will seek for safety when there's threat. the same as you, you will consciously put yourself to safety as you engage. most likely missing the target are possible. a big difference between IPSC match and the real threat is you're engaging targets that shooting back. yet it's an advantage that you join matches whether IPSC or IDPA to develop your "stability under pressure" and the confidence that you can hit. in the match your aim is to get the highest points in the shortest time, in real life threat your goal is to survive. the outcome of a course in a match is most likely predictable, which is contradicts in real life because your targets think. you can even practice your moves as you enter the stage of a match. therefore it's better to practice both reloading styles as you don't know what might be the "course" you are entering to. if practicing reloads in matches is a must, how much more in life threatening course. ;)
     
  19. Could it be if you have thinking ,moving targets and yu are not able to neutralize them or flee to safetey , it might be you are dead before you have time for the speed load

    Anyone know a gunfight scenario between civilians ( barilan bertween plitical goons not included ) where more than 1 mag was needed?
     
  20. mostly owning a gun is for the purpose of self defense, being ready for possible threats. as we always say, "better have it when you don't need it, rather than you don't have it when you don't need it." the same factors when owning a gun, after owning a gun we need to know when and how to use it. hitting the targets is the utmost necessity when it comes to firearm, it's the goal. yet the question now is do we need speed re-load and tactical re-load? my opinion then, both have to be practiced whether for match purposes or self-defense purposes. it's better that i have it when i don't need it, rather than i don't have it when i need it... :thumbsup:

    how i wish that we can choose the number/s of the perpetrators when we engage such. otherwise what's the use of hi-cap guns, even a single stock if i can always choose the number of my enemies according to the number of my carry ammos. i would always choose a man versus man fight then, with a single ammo on my chamber.i don't need to reload...:supergrin:
     
  21. Let's see now.

    Why are we anticipating engaging in real life combat ?

    First, except for saki and jerrytrini, most of us are untrained for force-on-force engagements.

    Secondly, to engage in a gunfight without formal LEO or military training, a person becomes a danger to himself and others. Sorry, IPSC/IDPA competition, though not completely uselss, is not LEO or military training. It's just a shooting sport. And that's it.

    Thirdly, a pistol for civilians is a purely defensive weapon to create space to get OUT of there safely and not to use to engage in running gunbattles with perps. Your job is to keep yourself alive by avoiding a fight primarily or if unable to avoid engagement, just use enough rounds to stop the threat - unlike IPSC/IDPA where you try to shoot as many rounds downrange as possible in the shortest period of time.

    Does this make sense ?
     
  22. personally, i think not practicing reloads (of any kind) because we are confident we'll never need to do it in an actual shootout (stats say a very high percentage of gunfights are concluded in 5 or less rounds, i think), maybe a little naive if not a little foolish.

    i mean no disrespect, this is just a strong personal conviction and opinion.

    and like navels...
     
  23. I agree that we should leave force on force engagements to LEO's. The weapon is for defensive purposes (when I am left with no choice) hopefully giving me a chance to stop the threat or to flee to safety.

    While it is true that some LEO's have specialized training (like SWAT members) and are immersed in situations approximating real gunfights, it is true also that there are LEO's who practice the way we civilians practice, i.e., IDPA and IPSC aside from their regular training. I've seen many LEO's who are very proficient in the use of firearms.

    But we should concede that there are many LEO's here in the Philippines who hardly practice. This was sadly admitted by a police general friend (whose name I will not mention). I was in the range one time when a policeman tried to shoot a steel popper from 15 meters. He used up all 15 rounds without hitting the target. I hope that they would send somebody else to help me in case I need the assistance of the police. Anyway, I think I can more or less gauge the weapons proficiency of a LEO just by looking at the holster and mag pouches that he uses and the state of his firearm (if it is clean).

    I think that most civilian - civilian encounters involve no necessitiy of mag changes but this notwithstanding, I would practice speed and tactical reloads. If I'm alone, I will use speed reloads but if I have someone covering me and the engagement is extended, I would use tactical reloads.
     
  24. What about "shooting on the move"? Do you think it's necessary. I can never hit anything if I am moving relatively fast.
     
  25. Agree except that I would bet on an IPSC shooter vs 98% cops or military :)
     
  26. fafa A: di ba walang tatalo sa "sayonachi style" natin???

    :supergrin: :banana: :animlol:
     
  27. Situational awareness and professional "wits" or gulang sa labanan at araw-araw na buhay. These are the LEO/Mil. weapons 90% of the time, only 10% is actual weaponry and skills.

    Most IPSC/IDPA shooters come from so called well-to-do and comfy lifestyles, not usually engaged it the nitty-gritty of street/jungle life; ergo, combat "wits" not practiced on a regular basis.

    So IMO when SHTF comes, LEO/Mil shooters hands down!:thumbsup:
     

  28. Where did yu get these facts may I ask?
    Kasi I get a lot of requests for training or supervising training for LEOs and I trained my city's swat team
    My opinion is based on what I observe lang
    ( tip - dont mess around w/ the PSG! )

    Rich and comfy lifestyle? Dun mga ako takot
    Spoiled warfreaks whoknow how to shoot
     
  29. My take on this, 1st hand from an Army friend.

    Nobody could beat or would have a very hard time beating the PNP in Pistol/Semi-Auto.

    Nobody could beat or would have a very hard time beating the Military in Long arms.

    Now special forces, swat, delta or scout rangers are a totally different story.

    A target that's shooting back at you is a totally different ballgame.

    I remember this friend of mine telling me that, you should not be that afraid if somebody is shooting at you constantly (layman's term sunod-sunod ang putok) you should be more afraid of the who's aiming and watching every round that goes off (layman's term pa-isa isa ang putok or sniping).



     

  30. ayoko na ng sayonachi

    Na overtrain yata ako for the subic triathlon may chemical imbalance , kaya parati mainitin ulo
    grrrrrrr....
    :)
     

  31. Just curious as to why the large frame pistol is such a booger to tacload while the compact is so much easier. I run a G22 and a G17, and have no exp with the G21/20

    Just like weapon mounted flashlights and lasers, reloading techniques all have their place. Deciding where and which to use is the biggest challenge. I can't honestly put one above the other in a general discussion.
     
  32. It is a fact that us civilians are not constantly engaged in real life combat situations but we have guns simply because we know that we have the right to defend ourselves and in so doing, in our subconscious minds, we entertain the fact that "it" can happen to us. Like they say, we should always be vigilant, never lax wherever we go, may it be in our very own homes, in our garage, in the parking lot, ...there is always that possiblity of getting that threat to our very lives and by practicing, training ourselves tactically, we get prepared for anything. while it is also true that nothing can prepare us for the real thing, it is always beneficial to attend shooting competitions and constantly train "tactically" in order to give us a better chance of surviving a real gunfight than the other guy. right?
     
  33. I have a G19 and a G21. I usually don't have difficulty doing tac loads on the G19 because the magazine is not that wide and I can manage to grip two mags at once. Also, the weight of a fully loaded G19 mag is not that substantial. It is also easier to slam it inside the magwell, the compressed mag springs (fully loaded) do not offer that much resistance.

    Now the magazine of a G21 is a lot wider and heavier. It is more difficult to grip two mags at once and a lot harder to slam it in the magwell because the mag springs offer a lot of resistance. There are times during competition when my magazines would just drop off because I was not able to slam it with enough force (I thought that the mag was already locked) during tac reloads. A guy with really big hands would probably not have difficulty.
     
  34. Poodle,
    Thanks for the breakdown.
     
  35. :thumbsup: i agree! you may out shoot cops in IPSC/IDPA matches but you can't out wit them, magulang kasi!:tongueout: :animlol:
     
  36. IPSC can help in actual scenarios, but tactical or combat shooting is totally different. An example is that in IPSC, when we enter a room, we usually stand inside a "box" when we open the door. If the perp is waiting for you, he or she will just aim at the door and start shooting once the door opens. In combat shooting, once you open the door and enter a room, you should stay away from the door as quickly as possible and probably find a cover or engage targets.

    There was an IPSC shooter who drove his jeepney part time, usually on Sundays, which is usually payroll day for farm workers. He lived in a mountainous town south of Bacolod and his jeepney was held up by three former CAFGUS turned holduppers, one of which was armed with an M16. They waited for the jeepney negotiate an uphill curve, and they were positioned in an elevated area. The perps fired warning shots when the jeep approached the area in an apparent attempt to stop the vehicle. He was armed with a FEG pistol loaded with Hydra Shoks. He went down the jeep and shot the perp holding the M16. The distance was about 15 meters. His first shot dropped the perp and his two companions ran away. He had the presence of mind and assessed the situation well. That made him survive the situation.
     
  37. In my previous post months ago, I told of a son of a sugar farmer in the suburbs of Cadiz City who fought more than 30 NPAs who entered their compound in an attempt to kill him and his deaf-mute sister. According to the locals, they saw at least 5 dead rebels being carried away when they decided it was too risky to prolong the firefight.

    He was armed with an M1 Carbine with two long mags and a small bag of loose ammo. His sister reloaded for him (inspite of being hit in the butt). An electric fence also helped them.

    He was kind enough not to shoot a young rebel (he said the kid was just about 13 years old); he just shot the ground in front of the kid and the kid ran away.

    He was suffering from PTSD for a long time.

    Again, presence of mind played a big role in this gentleman's survival.
     
  38. as i've said over and over again, when owning a firearm for sd purposes, you must take the time to be proficient with it through constant practice!

    and one such effective way to master your firearm is to try out shooting competitions. be it ipsc or idpa, merong role ang competition in your training.
     
  39. i'm no expert but i do own a firearm.

    i would think it sensible (and responsible) to practice with my firearm.

    and that includes reloading!

    'nuff said!

    :)
     

  40. Kasi competition gives you the confidence in your ability to shoot
    Tingnan mo mga ipsc shooters dito sa board ang yayabang parang sila nalang magaling ahehehe ( nandamay pa ng iba ahehehe )
     

  41. well at least , it as a self defense situation
    a few spoiled rich kids are asking for lessons sa shooting
    I hear they have also been taken up boxing
    Think of that as a menace to society hehe basaguleros w/ the skill sets and money to match
    Tapos ang ptc
     
  42. On a one to one basis, it is possible to outshoot cops but if they are operating as a team, outshooting them may be next to impossible. I think one of the the reasons (aside from gulang - magulang talaga) why this is so is that as a group, they have the advantage of numbers and teamwork not to mention logistics. If the first responders are not so proficient in neutralizing the threat, they will eventually call SWAT in great numbers and sooner or later, the threat will be neutralized. Moreover, as an organization, the PNP would naturally gravitate to developing doctrines in the art and science of gunfighting using pistols with their accumulated experience.

    There is an issue before of whether selective fire is better than rapid fire. I believe that at the start of an engagement, it would be better to lay down a large volume of fire in the general direction of the threat the purposes of which are: 1] to neutralize the threat; 2] to suppress fire coming from them. After things settle down, then the volume of fire can be moderated and more selective, that is, if the engagement is of long duration.

    Engagement between civilians would most probably be of short duration (lasting seconds), not getting past the "start of engagement phase" so it might be best to lay down as heavy a volume of "relatively accurate" fire (if there is such a thing) as possible with a view to survival or withdrawal from the gunfight zone. If the engagement is protracted, then selective fire (and may a merciful God help you - we are allowed only 50 rounds of carry ammo).
     
  43. kung sabagay, normally we bring 1 or 2 mags plus the one in the pistol and 1 in the pipe! kung g17 dala mo, that's 52-55 rds of ammo on you! (if with +2 base pads)

    you're my idol, father P! pistol packing pater poodle! hahaha!

    see you Friday sa gunshow!
     
  44. one of the rules of thumb in any kind of battle, is to never ever under estimate your opponent. you might have all the guts and confidence to shoot accurately against your opponent/s but you might not have the idea what's their capabilities. there's a possibility that they might be a better shooter than you, to fight back is to apply the tactics you have learned and practiced. it's really easy to shoot a static target and doesn't shoot back, but a target that shoots back and tactically knows how to maneuver is a very different story.
    i will not put my life at stake with over confidence than safety... ang gulang! :upeyes:
     
  45. True. Gulangan talaga dahil buhay nakasalalay. Mas maganda nga yatang magdala ng 33 round glock mag bilang extra mag tapos me naka-load na 17 rounder. Ang haba ng 33 rounder, parang baseball bat din yun pag naubusan ng bala. Maganda siguro na aside from the PTC me PTT din para me 50 rounds na nakasubo sa PTC tapos me 300 rounds na ammo nung PTT, total 350. Joke only.
     
  46. and on the initial subject of reloads (tactical or otherwise)?

    practice it or don't practice it?

    to me the answer seems obvious.

    :thumbsup:
     
  47. Practice siyempre. Familiarization. Bili na ako ng 33 rounder tapos practice din ako dun. :wavey:
     
  48. Off topic pero what about shooting on the move? Do you practice it?
     
  49. i do, though the cons is you are exposing yourself to your target/opponent. who knows, you might be needing it in real life. shooting on the move is great for covering (best with assault rifle in auto or burst mode) moving from one cover to another, withdrawing, covering your partner and a lot more...