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Sweeping someone when your weapon is holstered.

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by toshbar, Jan 18, 2010.

  1. toshbar

    toshbar Timber Baron

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    I recently posted a photo on a social networking site of myself shooting my rifle prone. I had my glock 23 in my serpa paddle holster and some interesting comments came up.

    Here's the photo that started it:

    [​IMG]


    And here are the comments that followed. I have changed names.

    In this conversation I'll change my name to "Toshbar" as it is on GT. The guy beside me in the gray shirt is "NCTRP" here on GT, and is a NC Highway Patrolman for reference of his 'service weapon' below.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    PERSON A
    that glock is totally flagging someone right now

    nice muzzle control Toshbar.

    NCTRP
    I guess when I lean over at work to pick something up, I should now apologize to whoever is behind me for my service weapon being pointed at them.

    It is impossible for a properly working Glock to fire without the trigger being depressed. Not only is the firing pin channel blocked until the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar has a deflected ramp to keep it from firing in the event of a "bump"

    Person A
    I know this. I have the same safety on my ruger. I'm just pointing out the lack of muzzle control. Safeties aren't perfect- they can fail, however very few ever do

    Toshbar
    So shoulder holsters that the FBI uses should be deemed unsafe too? Whenever they walk around, the muzzle is pointed directly behind them.

    I could also go so far to say that when you're at a stop light with your shotguns laying across your backseat, they too are actually pointed at someone.

    Person A
    that's what i've been saying!

    Toshbar
    can you cite me an occurrence of a holstered weapon(with the trigger covered) negligently discharging, because we all know there's no such thing as 'accidental discharge'?

    I agree with you on muzzle control, but sometimes there are situations where there are no alternatives to sweeping someone with a weapon. I'll give you another example: what about police departments that are on an upper level of a building. they're walking around all day with weapons loaded and holstered pointed at the people on the floor below them. What do you do?

    Person C
    how do you know there is anyone back there? if it was the person with the camera the picture would be taken of the muzzle.

    contrary to popular belief guns dont just go of by themselves. and how do you know there is a round in the chamber? or how do you know there is even a full mag in the gun and its not empty? anyone that walks behind him is at fault not him.

    NCTRP
    no one is / would be at fault because no gun will ever go off in the situation presented.

    Person C
    correct

    Person A
    wow.
    you guys are totally missing the point; i commented on Toshbar's photo to joke him on his muzzle control- the user IS and ALWAYS WILL BE responsible for where his weapon is pointed (Person B, if you have a "service weapon" you should know this better than anyone), and most importantly, I was later trying to point out that safeties CAN malfunction... I didn't say that a gun can go off without anyone pulling the trigger or being near it, I was trying to say that they can go off accidentally if the safety fails from a "bump" or whatever. Safeties work 99.999999% of the time because we trust them and use them properly. However, sometimes they go off even with the safety engaged, which is called a "safety malfunction". This can be caused by a few different reasons, but mostly from faulty manufacturing (This is the main reason why recalls take place). This is why no matter how much you trust your weapon and its safety, you should still be in constant control of it at all times and know where it is pointing. You wouldn't like it if someone loaded their pistol, put the safety on, aimed it at your head, and then pulled the trigger, would you? That's because there's still a doubt in your head that the safety could fail.

    That's all I'm saying. Thanks for taking this way too far.

    Toshbar
    I think we're arguing from the same side of the fence Person A, but you say "You wouldn't like it if someone loaded their pistol, put the safety on, aimed it at your head, and then pulled the trigger, would you?"

    I certainly wouldn't and would never do that to anyone.

    There is a stark difference between the action you describe and me loading a pistol and putting it in a holster that positively retains the pistol and covers the trigger so as not to allow anything to get into the trigger guard that may pull the trigger rearward, causing the gun to fire.

    Person A
    exactly. But accidents do happen. Safeties fail. "Bumps" cause guns to go off, despite safeties.
    That's all I was trying to say.

    NCTRP
    perhaps we should invent a paddle holster that rotates 360°, so in the off chance you are in a 900 acre forest, laying down taking shots, instead of your sidearm being pointed into the air, you can conveniently adjust it to point into the ground...
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Let me know what you guys think.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2010
  2. farley45

    farley45

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    Much to do about nothing :dunno:
     

  3. mundanenoodle

    mundanenoodle

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    Person A needs a helmet and a handler.
     
  4. Toyman

    Toyman

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    Person A is an idiot. Glock strikers aren't even fully "cocked" until the trigger is pulled. It's surprising how many people don't even know that.
     
  5. raven11

    raven11

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    Person A is a tool, thinking a weapon in a holster with no hands anywhere is going to go off by itself
     
  6. nctrp

    nctrp

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    And look at me, with my rifle pointed so negligently at a 38° angle upwards from the intended target while I change a magazine. I guess I should also apologize to the waterfowl that may be swimming in the river 2500 yards from where we were...

    Keep your finger off the trigger unless you intend to destroy your target, it's that simple.

    Myself and toshbar have a greater likelihood of having simultaneous heart attacks 47 seconds from now than a holstered glock going off.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2010
  7. maynardwix

    maynardwix Notre Dame Fan!

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    I agree, Person A was just trying to push your buttons over something stupid. Not saying muzzle control is stupid, but arguing the fact over a holstered weapon is.
     
  8. Jai9100

    Jai9100

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    I didn't read your post yet, but by judging on the pic, who ever is wearing the glock is totally flagging the guy behind him.
















    :tongueout::tongueout:
    Person A is just trying to prove an obsolete point in conjunction to the photo, the old "hey look at me trying to look totally smart"
     
  9. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    Morons.

    Ask them if they want you to disassemble the pistol before you climb a flight of stairs.
     
  10. thegriz18

    thegriz18 Paper Killer

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    Id say that guy (person A) is just a troll. People that like to make a big deal about everything so they look like a hot shot say something about what you have pictured, just to be a smart *** and feel important.
     
  11. Patrick Graham

    Patrick Graham Footlong Jr.

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    About 20 years ago I watched a couple of guys come to blows at the Wilber Wright range at New Castle over getting swept with a loaded, cocked and locked 1911 in a horizintal shoulder holster.

    Edited to add: Breaking the 180 will get you DQ'd
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2010
  12. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    A holstered weapon is a safe weapon.

    One reason I have never liked a rule that required a person to un-holster a weapon and clear it in their car or parking lot in the name of safety.
     
  13. Instructor25

    Instructor25

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    "I know this. I have the same safety on my ruger. "

    This coming from a guy with a ruger, no Im not knocking rugers as I have one as well, but it seems to me that some people (A) cannot comprehend that Safety does not start with the weapon itself, it starts with the person. It's not like you had your glock tucked in between your belt and pants, it was secured in a holster. Some people just need a reason to *****, or to point stuff out saying "oh look your prone stance is all wrong, or your totally flagging someone with that holstered weapon". We call those kinds of people FA*'s at work. Nothing but a bunch of homos, always trying to critique somebody instead of asking some helpful questions, or offer some constructive criticism. Sorry Rant button is off now :steamed:
     
  14. toshbar

    toshbar Timber Baron

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    I love my serpa for this reason. I can remove the magazine, and rack the slide to clear the chamber without unholstering and thus letting the trigger become exposed.
     
  15. Myke_Hart

    Myke_Hart Handloader

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    On this note, if you take your glock apart you will see what he is saying above.

    The glock works by pulling back the firing pin when you pull the trigger.
    The firing pin is at rest EDIT: on the trigger bar slighly cocked , until the firing pin is pulled all the way back via the trigger bar.
    The trigger bar pushes back the firing pin applying spring tension, then the trigger bar sweeps down slightly releasing it allowing the firing pin to spring forward.

    Think of a pinball machine. When you start a game you pull back the plunger and release the ball (firing pin). There is no way that ball is going anywhere until you pull back the plunger and let it go.

    When you cock a glock all you are doing is resetting the trigger by allowing it to move forward and latch on the firing pin again.

    Just tell person A to take apart a glock and then it will make perfect sense why they don't have or need safeties.:supergrin:

    Diagram:
    [​IMG]

    Edit: Forgot to mention the firing pin safety. This is a button that prevents the firing pin from going forward even if it is pulled back and released. This button has to be depressed by trigger pull as well. That is so you can drop your glock on the back and the gun still can't go off via gravity pulling or slaming back the firing pin when it hits.:wavey:
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2010
  16. toshbar

    toshbar Timber Baron

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    I have detail stripped multiple times and have spent hours looking over the inner workings and am confident that unless something pulls on that trigger, the gun will not fire.

    not knocking your explanation, you did a good job.
     
  17. Jon_R

    Jon_R

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    Not a holstered weapon. As long as when you draw or holster a hot weapon you don't break the 180 you are ok. We have IDPA stages every now and then where you start on your hands and knees like you have been knocked down. in that case with a belt holster your pointing a hot weapon backwards. You have to get upright then draw.
     
  18. madcitycop

    madcitycop

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    Person A is probably one of the dumbest people to post on firearms forums while pretending to be knowledgeable
     
  19. Instructor25

    Instructor25

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    +1

    Everone is an expert behind the keyboard :upeyes:
     
  20. Myke_Hart

    Myke_Hart Handloader

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    Someone should make a video. Cause moving pictures speak a thousand words.:embarassed: